Efficiency Maine pitches battery, off-peak programs to Ogunquit committee

[0:00] Robin: So, we won't do all the little business we do, you know, like accepting minutes and all that, because we don't have everybody here. So, maybe we could just start, and you can discuss, you know, the programs at Efficiency Maine, the small battery program. Graham, and also in any other people will be keen to any other updates. Yeah, okay, great, thank you. Well, I'll start in. I have a couple slides. Okay, we're we're online now. Yeah, all right. [0:48] Graham: I'm gonna see if I can share content only. Oh, sure, can you see my slides now? Yes. Yes. All right. I'm going to go to presentation mode, slideshow. I'm going to just do a few slides, and I would encourage you to ask questions at any time. You know, hopefully, who Efficiency Maine is. We run the state's energy efficiency programs. We run programs to level the load on the electric grid so that we can reduce rates and improve grid reliability for all Mainers. And we also run programs, what we call beneficial electrification, things like going from burning heating oil in a boiler to going to an electric-powered heat pump, or going from a gasoline-powered car to an electric car. That's what we call beneficial electrification. I'm going to jump into the grid and move quickly to batteries. I just want to share as a background, when demand on the electric grid peaks, four bad things happen. One is costs go up, and number two is grid reliability is strained. That's not good. Emissions increase because we bring on the dirtiest power plants last, because they are also the most expensive. And electrification, which I just mentioned to you, gets slowed down because electric prices go up. So grid peaking is a problem. On the costs, it's really an insidious situation. A supply or generation, what happens is the first power plant, make a pretend numbers, might be willing to generate power for one penny per kilowatt hour. It's just a pretend number. When you need more power than that, we have to bring on the next most expensive power plant. That might be two cents per kilowatt hour, but it's worse than that. The power plant that was willing just a moment ago to generate for one penny per kilowatt hour, they get paid two cents per kilowatt hour too. And then when you get more demand, bring on a three cent per kilowatt hour power plant. But the first guy goes from two cents up to three cents, the second guy goes up to three cents. So the first person on the grid, their costs go up as a result of the last person to have demand, and costs also go up because of delivery of getting the electricity from the plants to the homes. If we have a bigger demand, which I'm going to show you a graph in a moment, we need a bigger grid. We also share costs across New England for the transmission lines, the giant power poles that cut swaths through the forest, not the one that goes down the street, but the one that goes through the forest. That's a transmission line, long distance transmission line that's managed by ICE in New England. And we divvy up costs for the year with the other five New England states based on a snapshot of the peak hour of the year. And if we're using a lot of electricity on that, let's say we usually use, at that point we're using 10% of the power of New England. For the next year, 10% of all expenses, in Maine, expenses in Connecticut, expenses in Massachusetts, all expenses, we pay 10% because that one snapshot, that's what we're using. If we could shave that down to 9% of the grid, we would save our Mainers 1% of all expenses across the entire New England grid. So when we spike during peak, it costs us, transmission costs go up for a year. And then the last thing I've got on here is BIII, kind of adding insult to injury, transmission efficiency line losses get worse as you put more power on the grid. So as you need more power you put more power on the grid, you lose more. When you need more, you lose more. It's this vicious cycle. So hopefully I've convinced you that transmission peaks in the grid are bad. I've got a graph here, this is just hand drawn, it's not real data, but it'll show the concept. And the vertical axis is grid load or expense, so bigger is more expensive, and across the horizontal axis is midnight, noon, and midnight. And these are some pretend graphs just for concept only. If we had a grid with very minimal use that spiked for a very short time period and dropped back down to a very minimal use, this is the worst of all worlds. This is an unmanaged grid, it's very small load. There's not a lot of electricity going across this grid because it's usually right close to zero, but the grid needs to be giant because it has to handle this one peak. So you've got a small load, big grid, it results in high costs per kilowatt hour. Two approaches to that, everyone knows shaving the peak is helpful. So if you take that same amount of electricity, but you spread it out evenly over the course of the whole day. So it's the same small load as the red line, but it's a much smaller grid that lowers the cost per kilowatt hour. Most people know that. It's obvious to most folks. Shaving the peak helps. There's another thing, another way, though, to lower electric rates, and that is to fill in the valleys. So picture, if you will, heat pumps that run 24 hours a day and a little bit more at night when it's cold and there's very little demand, or think about electric vehicles that charge off-peak or anything that can be used, shifted to off-peak. This line here is a similarly big load to the first one. I mean, similarly big grid, but there's lots and lots of electricity. It's fully utilized all day long. That is also low cost per kilowatt hour. So you don't have to reduce the load. You just need is the shape of the load that drives rates more than the grid size. You can have a big grid that's cheap or a small grid that's cheap. The question is, what's the shape of the load? Robin, I was hoping I'd get a question. [6:58] Speaker C (unidentified): So is the argument that what is one of the most important factors in keeping costs manageable is to have a steady rate of consumption, whether it's a high rate or a low rate, the consistency across the board is the most important factor. [7:15] Graham: You're spot on. That's exactly it. So it really changes our thinking. It's not that we don't have to reduce the load. We have to level the load on the electric grid. Yes. Thank you for stating it that way, Robin. In fact, the focus of our demand management programs, that's sorry, that's an internal expression, demand management, is to lower electric rates and improve grid reliability for all Mainers, not just participants, but for everyone in the whole state by verifiably and cost-effectively leveling, not lowering, leveling the load on the electric grid. So now you know what we're out to do and why we're out, we're seeking to do it. I've got one more set of graphs and then we can just have a conversation. This next graphs are also hand-drawn. They're not exact numbers, but they should be conceptually helpful. It's the same axis. Grid load or expense is on the vertical axis. The bigger it is, the more expensive power is, more expensive the grid is. It's also the dirtier the grid is. And the horizontal axis is time of day. The first line is an unmanaged grid. This is actually quite real. This is what the real grid does look like. There's a spike in the morning. It doesn't actually dip quite that low at noon. And then there's a big spike at between 5 and 9 p.m., and this is a graph showing no electric vehicles. I have an electric vehicle, and when I get home from work, I plug it in. I don't actually need to charge it then, but I'm next to my car. It's convenient, so I plug it in, and it charges. Ouch. It charges at the very most expensive and dirtiest time of the day, and I do that because it's convenient. We have a program and if I don't actually do this by the way but I used to before I knew the impact of my actions we've come out with an electric vehicle off-peak charger program it's a charger for a car standard charge rate high quality indoor outdoor high speed but it's got a built-in software program that it automatically pauses charging from 5 to 9 p.m so I can charge my I can plug my car in anytime I want 24 hours a day no problem whenever it's convenient for me and it'll the car will be Fully charged in the morning but it doesn't actually charge from five to nine doesn't need to it doesn't have it charges after nine so look what happens there's no additional peak and we started to fill in the valley so this is the off-peak charger program this is one thing that we're doing right now we've got thousands of customers EV owners, electric vehicle owners are now plugging in 24 hours a day. Their car is charged in the morning, but they're not charging at peak. They're charging, in fact, in the valley, which lowers the cost for all Mainers, EV owners who are participating, but also those of us on this call, our electric rates go down a little tiny bit because people are charging their car off peak. We also have another program, which we're going to talk about now, the small battery program, and picture this being my house, I do actually have a battery in my house, and my battery, every day, in another 41 minutes, my house is going to come off the grid. I won't know it, my wife won't know it, 's completely invisible to anyone in the house, but central main power will say, whoa, something happened to Andy Meyer's house, the hole that's broken down or burned, something horrible has happened, it must be cold and dark, he's not using any electricity you see this drop pummel drops right down to zero i'm doing just fine thank you don't worry about me the house is warm and lit we're having dinner we're cooking refrigerator's running we can have guests, we can do whatever we want. But my house switches over to the battery at nine o'clock when the grid is no longer peaking. The battery pops up and look at this yellow line because it's charging, my battery's charging and my AV is charging, they're They're both adding load to the grid off-peak. So on-peak, my house disappears, and it's transparent to me. So it's super convenient. Plug your car in anytime you want and use all the electricity you want 24 hours a day. But I'm on what's called time of use rate with Central Main Power. I pay a big penalty for any electricity I use between 5 and 9. Remember, I don't use any at all, not a single kilowatt hour. And I get a great discount for the other 20 hours a day, that's when my house uses it. So that's part of the small battery program, that's the time of use rate. If you, if you get a battery and ask Central Main Power to switch to time of use rate, you can program your battery to automatically make sure that you're only using off-peak electricity 24 hours a day. The small battery program goes one step further. The battery, I'll tell you, my car is a normal electric car. When I plug it in, it triples the demand on the grid of my entire street. That's how big an EV is. My battery is also big, and it's so powerful. I can power all the houses on my street for two hours. I actually can power my house plus all my neighbors, and so it's something called virtual power plant. It's a program from my battery manufacturer, we have 15 batteries off of this, it's funded by Efficiency Main but it's actually run by the battery companies. My battery, when it comes to five o'clock, I'm going to show you what happens in my house when there's a super peak like one of the biggest peaks of the year. The battery company sends me a text and says, Andy, tomorrow from 5 to 8. There's a super peak coming. It's a grid emergency. We'll pay you if you give us permission to discharge electricity from your battery, not just to power the house, but put it onto the grid and power your neighborhood. I say, sure, go for it. And at 5 o'clock, my house doesn't go to zero. My house becomes a power plant. This is a regular house, by the way. There's no smoke back. I don't get oil deliveries. I don't have natural gas in my house. It's just electricity that I used from the grid off-peak. I discharge to the grid. That takes not just my house off the grid. It takes my neighbor's house off the grid, and my next-door neighbor, and the neighbor after that. And central main power sees my street drop down to probably not quite to zero, but quite low. I said, wow, something happened on Beachwood Lane. Look at that. The transformer was getting hot before. We thought we had to put another one. I'm not quite sure what happened, but it doesn't seem like we need to have a grid update and certainly no need to fire up the most expensive and dirty power plant. And at the end of the year, I get paid. So that's what I wanted to share with you. I have lots of other slides, but I want to share with you the concept of off-peak chargers can shift load off peak. What's what we're after is leveling low electric grid. They cost 49, totally painless, totally invisible to the customer, and they shift those giant loads of electric vehicles off peak, which takes them from being a burden on the grid to actually lowering rates and leveling the load, which lowers rates and improves grid reliability. And then my battery, every day, every weekday from 5 to 9, my house is off the grid. I'm not contributing to peak. And on the super peaks, which is 24 to 60 times a year, my battery not only takes me off the grid, it powers the neighborhood, and I get paid for that. I save about 25% on my electric bill, which means $1,000. So savings per year, for my time of use, dodging, and I expect to get paid between $500 and $700 a year for helping power my neighborhood during Superpeak. That is, I think I did it in 20 minutes. That's the pitch on demand management. You got that without knowing it, and I showed you our off-peak charger, why it's beneficial, why you can get a $400 charger for just $49, and I showed you what a battery can do. My battery will save me $1,000 a year by shifting me off peak every day, and it'll earn me a check for $500 to $700 each year for sharing the electricity of my battery with the grid, and that is my pitch. [16:01] Speaker C (unidentified): Robin's got her hand up. Question. Would you need to be an all-electric, sorry, would you need to be an all-electric house to participate in this scheme and my other question is for someone who if somebody wanted to participate what are kind of the next steps in terms of more information making application etc what are the practicalities of taking advantage of the program those are wonderful [16:31] Graham: questions thank you for asking the answer to your first question do you have to be an all-electric home? The answer is no. You just need to be attached to the grid and use electricity. I will say the economics improve the more you save 25% on your electric bill. So if you don't use much electricity, you'll save 25% of a small number. You won't save many dollars. You'll save the same 25% anyone else would, but you won't save a lot of money. The virtual power plant program, the small battery program, that has nothing to do with how much electricity you use. That has only to how much do you help the grid on those super peak emergencies so hopefully that answers your question about who is eligible does that help yes that's helpful thank you and so then [17:15] Speaker C (unidentified): if you want to think you know this is the greatest thing since sliced bread i'm up for that [17:20] Graham: what does someone do next i've got a slide on that but i'm trying to get it well here's what you do for time of use i think there's three steps you put the battery in you buy a battery you find an installer on efficiencymain.com and you hire them to put the battery in you call central main power and ask them to switch your time of use rate which is no charge they'll come out and put a different meter on your house and change your plan so that's two put in the battery switch to time of use with Your utility and three is program the battery and that's it. You'll never have to look at the program again. You don't have there's no steps no work. Your bill the next bill will just go down 25. It'll automatically be taking your house off the grid and using stored off peak power during peak. So that's the only things you have to do for the time of use buy a battery program it call central main power and for the virtual power plant program there are only two steps buy a battery same step as the other one and program the battery. You'll automatically get paid by the battery manufacturer. They'll write you a check each year. So buy a battery, call CMP, program the battery, and wait for the savings and earnings to come in. Does that paint the picture? [18:46] Speaker C (unidentified): Yes, that's really helpful. Thank you. [18:48] Robin: I have a couple of questions about where to buy the battery. So do we just go to Efficiency Maine website and look at recommended vendors for batteries? [19:00] Graham: You sure do. Let me see if I can share again. I'll give you a demonstration. We'll do it right now. Perfect. So this is my browser, efficiencymain.com. I go to residential, find a vendor, comes here. It says, what do you want for a service? I said, batteries is what I'm interested in. Can someone give me the Conquist zip code? Say 03907 let's say in one within 50 miles that's an hour's drive what have we got and we've got nine companies linscott electric here's their address they offer heat pumps ev chargers ev batteries here's their full number website you can send them an email and we can see that there are others this is so linska is in south linska electric is in berwick south berwick and you've got another eight within 50 miles so that's that's all you need to do is search based on batteries and these all of these companies here are licensed, certified by the battery manufacturer, insured, and they've signed a code of conduct as to how they'll treat customers. So there you go. That was nine that was under 60 seconds. I just showed you how to find nine within 50 miles of a gun quit. Does that help largely on that question? [20:44] Robin: Yeah, well, and so is the cost of the battery the same? [20:50] Graham: No. That's why I didn't show you, but what's written on top of that page says, EfficiencyMain recommends getting estimates from at least three installers, and then listen for the second part, and letting them know you're getting multiple quotes. That helps installers put their best foot forward and make sure that they've made a good first impression with their [21:12] Robin: First quotation. So what would be a ballpark price if I wanted to have a battery installed here? [21:17] Graham: I had one put in June, and I paid $17,000, and I will be paid back $17,000 over the next 10 years in savings and earnings. So I'm getting free backup power. [21:32] Robin: Are there any rebates on it from initially? [21:40] Graham: No. Initially. No, this is an unusual program for efficiency main. Rather than giving you money to encourage you to buy a widget and hoping that you save money, the other way around, you buy the battery and we'll pay you for electricity that you donate to the grid. So it's not really donate because we're paying you, but the power that you put in the grid. The nice thing is the battery programs from the manufacturers, participating manufacturers, is guaranteed for 10 years, so you, if we end the program, you will end it for future participants, but we'll still be paying current participants. So if you're interested in backup power, this is a far better way to go. It's the best battery, best backup power money can buy, plus it saves you 25% on your electric rail, plus it pays you over $500 a year in rewards for sharing your battery. So it's much, cheaper. And I can show you that much cheaper than a generator. And if you have a high electric use, Robin, you zeroed right in on this for your first question. If you have high electric use, you can actually pay the entire battery. You have the battery paid off completely by the virtual power plant payments. [23:05] Robin: Does that help? So do you get like a monthly rebate from discount from central main power? If you have the battery? [23:14] Graham: Yeah, you don't get a rebate from CMP. They don't offer rebates. Your bill would go down 25%. [23:21] Robin: Well, that's what I meant, actually. The bill would be reduced by 20, around 25%. Yes. [23:28] Graham: Yes. So there are two benefits. Well, two financial benefits. One is your center main power bill will go down 25% all year long because you would be buying power off peak only. And then once a year, you'll get a check from the battery manufacturer and that's for the electricity that you gave back to the grid. They're paying you for that. Does that make sense? [23:48] Robin: Mm-hmm. And the battery size is dependent upon the size of your house. I assume there's [23:56] Graham: Different size batteries. Yes, there are different size batteries, and all the installers I just showed you, they can help. What they typically do is say, could I please see your electric bill? And then they ask, how long would you like backup power? Three hours, 12 hours, 24 hours, two days. Then and you work on that, and they say, okay. You say, well, I don't know, I like maybe a month. Okay, that's a gigantic battery and a lot, a lot of money. So okay, I changed my mind, forget the month thing, how about a day? So That's, that's more reasonable. Maybe a little bit more than what I had in mind. So okay, how about 12 hours? Yeah, so the battery I have from my house lasts 12 to 15 hours, can run a typical house 12 to 15 hours. I paid 50 more, I get twice as much longevity. But for me, I don't really need – my typical outage is about three hours, so having 12 to 15 hours of backup is plenty for me. So you work that out with the installer. I was just at my neighbor's house. He had one put in the last 32 hours. [25:06] Robin: So if everybody – if lots of people have the batteries and can reduce their peak usage, then does that reduce the cost overall based on what you said initially about how the states in New England price the power from the grid based on the peak power and the lower peak power per state. The utilities have a lower rate. If they can reduce the peak power, is that, if everyone put in a battery, the, you saw my hand [25:51] Graham: Drawn. Yeah, it'd be flat as a pancake, and this power plant, which is in Yarmouth, Maine, 850 megawatt belching fuel oil fumes, it's the dirtiest plant in the state, 850 megawatts, would no longer run. It would, it would never run again. We could send them a Christmas card thanking them for being around, but we'd never need to call them to generate power. We have plenty of power and plenty of capacity if people take turns, and batteries let people take turns effortlessly. [26:26] Robin: Does that answer the question, Margiela, the potential impact? Yeah, so and is this program available in all the New England states that share electricity? [26:41] Graham: Every state does it slightly differently, but I would say yes. Yeah, there's different structures, but New Hampshire, Vermont has their own, leading the country, by the way. We just started ours in April, and we're following in Vermont's footsteps very carefully. They did a brilliant job. Job. New Hampshire and Massachusetts and Connecticut and Rhode Island, the program is run by utilities, investor-owned utilities, and it's slightly different, but a similar concept of calling events and paying people. And Maine started the off-peak charger program last year, and we have a couple other programs I didn't share. We've been doing it a longer time period. And this particular program, which is, I think, most relevant for a gunkwit, started in April. And we have hundreds of people are already participating in the program. We'd love everyone in a gunkwit to get in and give Wyman Power Station a break. [27:49] Speaker C (unidentified): That would be a good banner. Give Wyman Power Station a break. Go battery powered. [27:54] Graham: That plant has for years and years been serving the people of Maine, not cost-effectively and not very cleanly, but they've been keeping our lights on. So I think it's time, and I hope you'll agree, time to give Wyman Power Plant a break. We have far cleaner sources that we could use 24 hours a day. [28:14] Robin: Right. So is there any other new programs or any big, new discounts on other energy-saving devices? [28:25] Graham: Devices or we've still got fabulous rebates on heat pumps, insulation, heat pump water heaters, circulator pumps, electric vehicles, and we still have very generous rebates. And when I say very, not dozens of dollars, not hundreds, but thousands of dollars. So those are some of the most, some of the leading programs in the country. By the way, our water heater program is number one in the country, and one, almost one in every 20 water heaters, efficient water heaters in the country, one in 20 comes to Maine. Every month we are leading the country, and heat pumps were number two in the whole country on heat pumps. One out of every six Maine homes is now heated primarily with a heat pump, and we are the only state in the country that offers an off-peak charger program. It was someone at Efficiency Main actually invented the concept. It'll, those chargers will be saving, protecting the grid forever, for as long as they exist. They're permanently pre-programmed. So does that paint the picture, Margie, for the landscape of energy efficient just [29:41] Speaker C (unidentified): Yes, in terms of then fine, as somebody may be watching the video and thinking, oh, I need to know more, is there somewhere on the website that's dedicated to available rebates, or do people have to navigate about a little bit? I know your example there with the contractors was so speedy and helpful. I'm just wondering if you have something similar on the site for rebates as well. Thank [30:08] Graham: You our whole website is designed to be speedy and easy. If you go to efficiencymain.com, this is the home page, and if you click the word residential, one click, and there you go. There are water heat pumps, geothermal, insulation, EVs. What's the rebate for low income, moderate income? It's all right there, one click from our home page. Super. We also have, I can just show off a little bit, I'm talking about batteries. We have a battery hub page. This talks about backup power. It helps compare generators with heat pumps. Small Battery Incentives talks about the program I just shared with you. This page has been on our website for about four hours. This is about time of use rates to help people understand what it means. And we have a program for large batteries, for commercial industrial batteries, and that's on the same hub page. So we've got hub pages for heating and cooling and insulation and water heating, but different home pages, but people can look for information on the technology, on incentives, on installers, and on financing. Does that help? How do I do, Rob? Yeah, look, easy. That's excellent. Thank you. Yes. [31:27] Robin: Okay, no, that's, yeah, because I didn't know about the batter, this battery programs. [31:34] Graham: Well, that's why I'm so grateful that you invited me, and I hope this has helped you, and I hope it'll help other people in town of Akunkwit. Is this program, it's very exciting. We have very high hopes, and yes, Robin, we're going to adopt the new slogan, give Wyman a break. [31:54] Speaker C (unidentified): Oh, that's, that's great. That's really interesting and very impressive. I'm just wondering, although this is an information session and not a formal committee meeting, Ben, is there anybody in the audience who might have some questions for Andy? [32:12] Graham: No hands right now. OK. OK. [32:17] Robin: OK, well, thank you. That was very informative. I didn't know about this program, and I think most people actually didn't know about it. I mean, we know about Efficiency Maine because we've had other speakers over the years to discuss all the programs, but this is a new program, and it's quite interesting. So I'm sure it'd be helpful. [32:44] Graham: Thanks for inviting me, and I did go a little over time, but hopefully that was helpful. And I really appreciate the sustainability committee helping to spread the word to the citizens of the town of Agunquit. We've got a lot of programs that can help the residents of Agunquit and serve the whole state. Okay, thank you. Okay, thank you. So I'm going to sign off. Thank you very much. Okay, take care. Thanks again for your time. You're welcome. Thank you, Robin. [33:19] Robin: Okay, so since we don't have the other members, there's not much more business to discuss, I guess. [33:29] Speaker C (unidentified): I mean, this will be, if we're, if Eileen is still coordinating the, see you in a, don't quit feedback of this session, yeah, and some of the links if she can put them in. [33:42] Robin: Yes, I mean, it's a matter of all this efficiency stuff, you know, getting out to the public, because not everybody watches our meetings. It's a matter of disseminating the information, which is very useful to everybody in town. [34:02] Speaker C (unidentified): I thought I was particularly interested and will probably follow up separately, but saying that the batteries were more effective than having a generator, because the way that with the layout of the land around our property, it's very hard to see where you could safely put a generator and have the right distance between the generator and the house, et cetera, et cetera. The battery might give you a bit more flexibility. So I think that's something I shall certainly explore. [34:32] Robin: And I've read about batteries regarding battery storage, you know, huge batteries storing energy from the power plants, but, you know, commercial size that you can generate electricity and just store it for, you know, areas. That it might have problems with the grid being down or this or that, instead of everybody not having electricity for two weeks because of a storm, there's a lot stored. So there's a lot going on in the battery area, I think. And also, I think we had mentioned last year that new appliances,, I haven't seen any yet, but appliances like refrigerators and such, they'll be available with batteries to store electricity if you need it. If you're in an area where the electricity goes out a lot for one reason or another, you wouldn't lose your refrigerator and all the food in it. You would have, it's either that or a generator and the battery seemed to probably be a little compact and less expensive as part of the appliance. [36:03] Speaker C (unidentified): So the, I guess, as we're not a committee and we, as we're not core and we can't make decisions, I think probably one thing maybe is looking at our topics for topic for October. One of the things on the list that David had was sustainable choices for seasonal homes, and I wondered if as we're getting into October, November, that would be a good topic, and we could the subheadings David had identified were energy and water, winterization, and responsible ownership. So maybe that would be a little panel of people rather than one person speaking to all the issues. Yeah, if you are open to that, I will put my I'll she'll put my thinking cap on, and I'll also give David a nudge. Yeah, that would be good as we approach winter. It would be quite, I think it's it's the season for people to start to think about season sustainable choices. Yeah, and there's a lot. [37:01] Robin: Of yeah, there's a lot of seasonable season. I mean, my house where I'm don't live here all the time, but my house is, still, I could, I mean, I could live here all winter if I wanted to. It's, it's, you know, it's, but I'm just not here. Okay. [37:20] Speaker C (unidentified): Well, if you're happy with that, then I'll try and take that forward together with David. And I guess we have to postpone the meeting minute. Well, there won't be any meeting minutes because it's an information session. Yeah. So election of officers gets carried forward as well. Yeah. Yeah. And I would hope in October we'll be quiet and we can plow forward. Right, so next meeting would be. [37:47] Robin: I didn't do you have a calendar there? I'm just yeah, I'm just bringing it up. [37:56] Speaker C (unidentified): October fourth, Thursday the fourth, Thursday would be the 22nd of October. Okay. [38:05] Robin: That would be right before Gunkwood Fest. Yes. Okay, very good. Okay, so I guess we can informally sign off because we're limited, so we'll hopefully have a bigger crowd next month. Okay, and thank you very much, Ben. Okay, thank you. Okay, bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.