Scarborough Planning Board Advances Tree Rules, Live-Work Unit, School Projects

[5:39] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): I'm going to elevate you for James meeting of September 21st before the 26th. All those that are able to use rise for the pledge. All right, got it. Aaron, would you do the roll call? [13:58] Aaron (roll call clerk): Jennifer Ladd here. Roger Bailey here. William Sedlak here. Ed Hodgson here. Marvin Gates here. [14:10] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): And Rick Monking here. In absence of James, Ed, you're promoted to full bowling member tonight. Night. Thank you very much. Doreen had sent out the minutes from the August 17, 2026 meeting, and I would entertain a motion to put those into the record. Thank you, Ed moved. [14:36] Marvin Gates: Do I have a second? Second, I knew you would. [14:43] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Any discussion? Seeing none, Aaron, you want to take the role? Jennifer Lott? [14:54] Aaron (roll call clerk): Yes. Roger Bailey? Yes. William Southlake? [14:58] Jennifer Ladd: Yes. Sorry, I just didn't get off mute in time. There is one quick correction, which is in the conflict disclosure. I'm sorry I didn't get this on. It's Ed is listed as the conflict with the potential with Scarborough Land Trust, and it's in fact me. Oh, it is you. Small edit. But yes, otherwise yes. Yeah, that's right. [15:22] Aaron (roll call clerk): Next up is Marvin Gates. Sorry, I skipped you. [Ed Hodgson: Yes. Ed Hodgson.] Yes. And Rick Manking. [15:29] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Yes, all right, we have a couple of public hearings tonight and we have five action items, so let's get down and dirty and get it done. So first public hearing, proposed amendments to chapter 405b Scarborough site plan ordinance section 2, the applicability to expand and differentiate the types of activity requiring site plan review and adding code enforcement and administrative review provisions, amending section three, application and review procedures, to add a clause requiring a 12-month delay for site plan submittals for properties and receipt of notice of violations, and amend the submittal requirements, also amending section 4, performance and design standards, section b, landscape and screening standards, to add definition for protected trees, increase streetscape buffer requirements, amend landscape requirements to require tree preservation, protection, and or mitigation, and include a waiver provision for an in-lieu payment option for tree mitigation. Autumn, you want to give us a brief on this one? Yes, thank you, [16:48] Town Planner / Planning staff: Mr. Chair, and if you don't mind, I'm going to introduce 4.01 and 4.02 together. 4.02 is our amendments to the zoning ordinance the chapter 405, but they work hand in hand and I fear the [17:00] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): presentation works better, works better that way. All right, it looks more complicated than it really [17:08] Town Planner / Planning staff: is yes so this is just a bit of background and our existing ordinances so we are accomplishing quite a few things with these proposed amendments we are addressing some site plan review consistencies but more than anything we are addressing street scape requirements tree preservation and mitigation and then we are addressing disturbed area and how we capture that in our site plan review process so we have chapter 420 right now it is a an engineering chapter that addresses disturbed area and disturbed area for purposes of this is basically anything below the soil level. So in the instance of removing a tree, if you are just cutting down the tree above and leaving six inches of the stump, that is not disturbed area. But if you to go in and take that stump out and grub it and stump it, that is creating disturbed area. And so we have this right now, but this effort is really to make that much more apparent in our site plan ordinance. And then of course we have chapter 405, the zoning ordinance and then 405b, which is our site plan review ordinance. So these ordinances, they came from joint reviews at conservation commission and in the ordinance committee. They started some of this started actually last year with tree conversations. Much of this came out of conversations about some tree removal on Holmes Road, the new apartments at Muzzy Road. Those brought up some tree conversations, and then more recently we have a tree removal at 741 U.S. Route 1. So there's a lot of things that really instigated these amendments, but some of them, some of those issues were already captured, but this makes it helps to make it really clear. So in this first section for site plan review, we are proposing also to clean up some site plan review processes. So we have two new sections that are very apparent and clear. So we've included a code enforcement review section and then an administrative review. We've also added a clause requiring a 12-month delay for site plan supplemental if you have received a notice of violation, and we are adding tree survey requirements and then again definitions, commissions, and amendments to the streetscape buffer. So the applicability, I won't go through all of this, but it's really just being very clear on when you need to go through some form of site plan review and the CEO review. That's the code enforcement review, that's new. Many of these are already captured, but in our current ordinances these are exempt from site plan Review and they're truly not, they go under a different review, so this is just to capture them, and then we've added shoreland zone tree removal to this section that's already a current requirement, but putting it in with this other tree disturbance makes it more clear. I think we have admin review, so this is a director of planning or designee approval, excuse me, so we've given that you can do up to 100 square feet of alterations to a building, you can, it's a change of use for an existing or approved site plan and in private ways, that is a section in our zoning ordinance that the town engineer has authority over, but just capturing that again in this format to make it really clear, and then minor site plan review, this is our process that we have now where we get a project that comes in and I can confer with the planning board chair and we decide if it should go to the full planning board, but as you can do up to, propose to do up to a thousand square feet of additional alterations to a site and then major is your typical, that's everything else over a thousand square feet, tree removal of greater than an acre or disturbing land greater than an acre would come through planning board, so this table is really, I think, the easiest way, it's in your staff mo2, but it really tells you the different steps along the way. We've also captured state law is going to change the way subdivision is applied, so right now it's three or more lots or three or more units as a subdivision, but in July it will be three or more lots as a subdivision for five or more units, so we're going ahead and fixing that and putting those four or more units under the four or less units under the ceo review, just to go ahead and get that out of the way. Feel free to ask me any questions if you have any. Let go through this, I know it's a lot of information, so I may again mentioned the site plan submittal updates, so this one is pretty big, I think, the streetscape buffer yard, this proposal increases our minimum street skate buffer from 10 feet to 20 feet for all undesignated streets. This table really shows you where those changes are in all the different commercial zoning districts. The majority of our arterials and primary collectors, they're already 20 to 25 feet, but we are increasing that for all other streets, so within that same section in the site plan review ordinance, we are adding some new definitions and this is a also a change of consequence, so we're creating protected trees, so we have heritage trees and Significant trees, the heritage tree is a tree that's 90 years or older, diameter at breast height of 60 inches or greater, so a fairly large tree. It can be on the registry of big trees with the state, and heritage trees cannot be removed if they are designated as big trees. We do not have any that I'm aware of right now of those. And then significant trees is a non-invasive species tree with a minimum diameter breast height of 20 inches, or 30 inches if it's multi-truck. [Shelly Nickerson: So] these are the two types of protected trees. So significant trees, the smaller of the two, have to be protected. If they are removed, they have to be replanted at a rate of two and a half trees per each, and then heritage trees are a rate of five trees per each. So the goal is to have, excuse me, site plan design so that you're really protecting those significant trees. But if you have to remove them because they're in the middle of the site or they're just not in the place it would work, there is a way to replant for those. If you cannot replant on site, perhaps you've had to remove too many and your site just doesn't allow for it, there is an option that you can request a tree removal fee in lieu, and that would have to be approved through the planning board. I got through that really fast, so it's a lot of information, but in summary, increasing streetscape buffer with for commercial zoning districts, increasing the amount of planting in that streetscape buffer, requiring trees in vegetated understory as well in that streetscape buffer, and then requiring tree protection of the two types of trees are protected, and this of the significant in the heritage, and then fixing all the site plan stuff is just bonus and extra. So if you have any questions, I'm happy to go through any of that in more detail for you. [25:07] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Is any of that tree protection language going to be in the narrative when we talk about site analysis and inventory? Yes, so if you have significant trees or heritage trees on your site, a tree survey would be required to capture those. Okay, so and we'd capture that in our inventory. Yes, thanks. Got it. And I'm not going to pick on anybody. You can just ask questions as they come. Roger, I see a lot of yellow highlights. [25:43] Speaker H (unidentified): Well, I was listening to the council comments when I was really council, and I was just kind of curious because in the area that I live in, the Pleasant Hill area, there's a lot of very large pine trees. And I think many of them within the 20 within the right away, you know, and so how would, how would those be treated. [26:14] Town Planner / Planning staff: So in your neighborhood, most of that is residential zoning. And so that would not apply to the site plan, these rules wouldn't, if you remember council, we originally had some tree removal for residential and they nixed that so that didn't even get passed to this point. Now if you had some say you had that same situation and you rezoned town and village center the 20 feet of land not in the right-of-way but on your own property if you had a really nice vegetated buffer it would have to stay you could of course have your driveway approaches and things like that but the idea is that if you have a vegetated buffer in existence distance it needs to stay and if you don't you have to replant for it to be that thicker buffer I think Haggis Parkway has some really good examples like where the salt pump is there's a greater right-of-way there but they have a vegetated buffer there in front of the building that other facility that's just to the east of that has the same situation as well but excuse me having those trees and the understory remain in its natural state is [27:25] Speaker H (unidentified): what this requires so the other the other project that I keep thinking about is when Maine Med was building near not the most recent one but the building that's furthest towards South Portland now this is a while ago okay but I remember the planning board had quite a discussion about the trees that were right along Route One and to be honest with you they were terrible looking trees they were in bad shape but there was really an effort to retain those trees and in that case I think the trees that they ended up planting you know the landscaping was much more of an improvement than the existing square because what's happened in this town I'm sure it's happened in other towns when you cut down trees a lot of the trees that are left they're like canopies sure that I mean they're not really I don't think they're really healthy trees you know and so I was just wondering I guess my question is when this was being formulated did people did you folks or the staff or the commit committee bring in [28:45] Ed Hodgson: you know as far as you know forest management people no we don't have to go back to [28:54] Town Planner / Planning staff: Council until the end of October for their public hearing, so we're planning to try to do some outreach in that interim period to get some, because once it got to from ordinance it went to council quite quickly, so we wanted to get some more input on some of those things that came up. [29:10] Marvin Gates: Okay. That's all of it. Thanks, Roger. [29:14] Jennifer Ladd: Adam, can I? Sorry, Jennifer, go ahead. [29:20] Town Planner / Planning staff: Jen, you want to go? Sure. Just a couple quick things. One question I had was answered, which was about whether or not we have these kinds of trees inventoried already. Already. And actually, to follow up on Roger's point, another question that I had, it relates to the increased buffer within these zones. And on the one hand, I can appreciate that, and I can think of some other examples where we've kind of maybe lost some good buffering that was there, but the then I'm thinking about that in contrast with I know some of our zoning districts call for buildings or development in general to be focused or cited as close to the right-of-way as possible, and so I'm just curious, Autumn, if you can, and I'm not recalling like which ones offhand, and whether or not that's, is that a, is that a potential conflict in any of these areas, or am I mixing zoning maps in my head? I can, Jen, so I just shared this, it's hard to see, but in the majority of those districts already, like the TVC districts on your for your primary roads, the minimum buffer is already at that 25 foot to 35 five foot depth, and there are not a lot of side roads, but so this would affect those other streets, the set streets, right, or non-non-primary streets, you're saying? Yeah, okay, and okay, and presumably that's something that we could dive in more deeply on a case-by-case basis if there was a situation, I'm not thinking of a good example now, but you know where either we would want to adhere to that or perhaps not, I can think of one example, like if it wasn't of high quality, or you know, I don't know, something like that, or the sight line, the site, yeah, that's a good one, I think we, I think it sounds like we need to add something in there because right now the way it's written there's not any flexibility, yeah, make those calls if we're being hard [31:51] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): if it makes it hard for us, if they have cut down a tree because they need it for the sight line, that could really put the project in limbo, well okay, so I'm talking about two different [32:07] Town Planner / Planning staff: Things I think I'm talking about Roger's point. So if an existing, so if the existing buffer that's there and our ordinance says you have to keep that, but there's not a lot of valuable species maybe, or keeping that wouldn't be the best, there could be some flexibility to allow you all to let people do some a mixture of planting and preserving, you know, for the existing streetscape buffer, and then if you have to remove a tree for driveways or things like that, you can you [32:44] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): just have to mitigate for it, so the mitigation would come into that. Yeah, okay, yeah, you know, before we get too much further, this is a public hearing and I forgot to open the floor for a public hearing, and I wonder if there's anybody in the audience that is here because they want to talk. Seeing none, anybody online? Then I will officially close public hearing. Sorry about that. Nobody. William, you had your hand up, I [33:27] Jennifer Ladd: do. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think the two things that maybe out of it, just for my brain and thinking about some of the public comment I heard at the conservation Commission for the two kind of cuts, or I heard three cuts at the conservation Commission that were of concern. One was on Musty, the other was Holmes, and the final one was the cut on Route One. The Route One cut, am I correct, would be covered under the tree removal? I'm looking at the chart here. I love a good chart. Thank you for a good chart. You always do a good chart. Is the tree removal other than a timber harvest would be covered under that for the Route One and Homes would be covered under activities creating disturbed area? Is that fair to say for perhaps members of the public who were engaged before and might be watching this later? Correct, the Homes [34:11] Town Planner / Planning staff: would have been picked up not as a residential property but as the disturbed area. Yep, okay, and [34:16] Jennifer Ladd: Route One would have been the tree removal other than a timber harvest. Yes, and Route One already [34:21] Town Planner / Planning staff: already had four other violations under, they sure did, but they'd be getting a fifth here. [34:25] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Yes, cool, thank you, that's very helpful. Thank you. All set? Yeah, all set. All right, thank you. [34:36] Marvin Gates: Anybody else? Go ahead, Marvin. Autumn on page four at the bottom, amending. When I read this, and saw, as you said, it's two and a half trees if you have to take out a significant tree, and it's five trees if you have to take out a heritage tree. The next sentence I read caused me to think that even though the staff recommends $5,000 per significant tree, if you have to take it out and you can't replant, and $25,000 per heritage, that the $5,000 fee goes not high enough. And my immediate reaction was, oh, that should be $10,000. And closer to a two-to-one, have no ratio as is established in the replacement, the two-and-a-half versus five, if this is making any sense. Can you tell me how you arrived at 5,000 and whether or not we could increase that? [36:01] Town Planner / Planning staff: Sure, so typically when we do, we require performance guarantees for trees, we do it at a rate of a thousand dollars per tree, and so if you were missing two and a half trees, which you wouldn't be, but two and a half, that'd be 2500, and so the idea was to double that, so we at least you were paying more than you would have paid for planting a tree, ideally, and then the 25 000 was figured doing the five times, and again I think it was the five times the 5,000, and the fees have to ultimately be decided on by Council, so we can just make a recommendation. [36:47] Marvin Gates: Okay, well I would recommend raising it myself. I think you have to, you know, decide where your [36:55] Town Planner / Planning staff: priorities a lot, so I think it sets that tone, and I will say that, say you had a site where you did have to do quite a bit of mitigation, those trees that you plant, they count towards all of your other landscape requirements, so you can use them to do, you don't have to do twice as much per se, you know, you might have to do more depending on how many you remove and have to plant for, but you can use them to get credit for, you know, your parking island trees and your foundation [37:24] Ed Hodgson: foundation planting all count towards, seems [37:29] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): logical to me, Ed. [37:33] Speaker I (unidentified): Everyone asked the questions I wanted already and got the answer, so I think I'm all right. I just want to, oh, go ahead, Jen. [37:44] Town Planner / Planning staff: Sorry, I just had one last question, which was the all the criteria given describes trees sort of like individual trees, or there was one reference to like a group of trees, but all based on trunk measurements. And I was curious if there was any evaluation, or like if we should in any way be factoring in canopy cover or any other sort of metric, I guess, besides just measuring the girth of the tree. And the reason that I'm thinking about that is because if you know, if you happen to have five or six trees right all next to each other that were just a hair underneath whatever that measurement was, but were all slated to come out, and sort of like they're just wondering if they're grouping or like a number of them together would warrant protection. We could look at something like that, maybe where it's not a significant tree or a heritage tree, but it's a stand of trees that make up a certain percentage. We'd have to come up with a percentage of canopy and try to figure out how to capture that, but it's not a bad idea at all. I know it's a little trickier than just measuring a trunk, but I think it's in the same spirit of the ordinance change here. And you know, that idea is something maybe we can bring up with the professional group that we can ask for opinions on how they might look at that too. It's a great idea. I know there's like some lidar surveying sometimes and other types of inventory where you don't, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be manual, right? [39:45] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): I think we, I don't have anything to add other than what we've talked about here and the way we want to go this route. Then I just want to call the attention on the other public hearing because we do have to formally hold that hearing, so let me get back to my, so the next public hearing is the proposed amendments to chapter 405 Scarborough zoning ordinance section six definitions to add and amend the definitions conditions pertaining to timber harvesting and updating the commercial zoning districts to increase streetscape buffer minimum requirements to 20 feet for all streets. And I just, I just feel like I want to say I support that. I think going to 20 feet in a lot of cases it's only an additional five feet, but it does kind of bring all these different zones together and the requirements make it simple, 20 feet. So let me open up the public comment for 50 or 405. Anyone wishing to talk on that one? Anybody online? All right, formally closed public comment and is there anything else my Colleagues want to bring up, I guess we could call that two public hearings. That's off the list. Thank you. Thank you. So our next item for consideration, yes, this is a unique in the first of in Scarborough, I think CV and Mayor Engineers Incorporated on behalf of Jeff Mosier is requesting a site plan review for a 1,320 foot square foot live work unit private residence and a professional office studio at 10 Willowdale Road, Assessors Map U39, Lot 17. We saw this last month as a sketch plan and are you going to give us a rundown? Yes, so it was actually it [42:23] Aaron (roll call clerk): was not a sketch plan, it was an inventory. Oh, that's right, and master plan, because this is a live work unit as is allowed in this zone, and as such the applicant is looking to construct a single family home with a music studio to conduct lessons out of, and that qualifies under the live work unit. We've discussed this at the last meeting to determine any site impacts to the area. The applicant has requested a number of waivers that staff has supported, and we welcome [43:08] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): welcome your feedback. All right, thank you. Although let's say sketch plan review was a in April and then we did a site plan review in August according to this. Yes, and so this is just another site plan [43:27] Aaron (roll call clerk): review. You did a master plan review, master plan review in August. Okay, so it's a master that's plan was April, master plan and August, and today is the site plan. Got it, all right. And for the [43:41] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): applicant, thank [43:46] Choral director, Scarborough High School: you Mr. Chair. It's good to be back here again tonight. As I mentioned last month, it's my great privilege to serve as the choral director at Scarborough High School. Great to see some of my bosses out here as well. I plan to make this job at Scarborough High my career job, and so part of that is permanent housing and also building out a workspace for my other work with Portland Symphony, Choral Art, Main State Ballet, as well as Opera on the Pines and a few others, and so this will serve as my private residence and also my piano studio, so happy to answer any questions, but [44:11] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): look forward to hearing what you have to say. Thank you very much, and this item is available for public comment. Anyone wishing to speak please come up to the podium. Anybody online? Public comment is closed, and as I said, we've we've hashed over this one a couple of times, and I believe at the last one I support the waivers here for this project. I really think you had to do a lot of work to get to this point. It was a little bit, and I think it fits well in the neighborhood, and I'm I'm pretty pleased. With the way the aesthetics look and the landscaping and the extra effort you've put forth, but in no particular order, do my colleagues want to chat about this one? I can't see, I [45:16] Speaker I (unidentified): I'll just jump in right now. I'm fully in support of this. The waivers, I think, are, you know, definitely not out of the realm of what, you know, is being requested, shouldn't be considered, you know, too strong. So good luck. I'm like, you're happy, you're still moving forward with us. Thank you very much. My [45:39] Marvin Gates: only comment was to support the recommended conditions for approval. Number one, address engineering comments. There were quite a lot of those. Like to see all those ticked off. Yeah, thank you for saying that. Our engineer [45:56] Choral director, Scarborough High School: has actually received those a few, maybe a week ago or so, and he's going to have those to the town staff by the end of the week if it goes through tonight. So thank you. And [46:06] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): I don't see Jen or William, so I think I'll move to approve the project title Mosher Live Work Development proposed by Jeff Mosher. The project is depicted in application materials prepared by CV Mayor dated 8 21 26. The application is approved with the following findings, waivers, and conditions. Findings, the site plan includes a 1320 square foot live work unit to serve as a private residence in professional music studio and a garage to be added to the front of the structure at a later date. This is the final step in the plan development process. The parcel is 0.3 acres and is located in the general business B3 zoning district. The planning board finds and the project meets the requirements of the zoning ordinance with the waivers and conditions below. Waivers, one, the applicant has requested a waiver from the required formal lighting plan as all planned light fixtures are included on the building elevation per section 3 a3. The planning board may waive such requirements that the board finds that the required information is not necessary due to the special circumstances of a particular site plan or the nature or scale of the proposed development. Applicant has and included proposed fixtures on site plan and indicated they will meet ordinance requirements. Waiver two, the applicant has requested a waiver from the required 40 transparency standard per section 4e.30 a of chapter 405b due to the limited narrow building envelope. The applicant has provided supplementary plannings and design elements to provide scale and visual interest. Waiver three, applicant has requested a waiver from the required traffic impact study given minimal additional trips generated by the project. The applicant has provided a traffic analysis report. The applicant has requested to provide a sidewalk fee in lieu to the town. Section 4a 11 of chapter 405b requires public sidewalks be provided throughout Scarborough's commercial areas. If a sidewalk does not exist in the street adjacent to the site, the applicant shall be responsible for the construction of a sidewalk along the full width of the frontage or in a location otherwise determined by the applicable reviewing authority. And part of that also includes section 4A 13 allows the planning board may allow the payment of a fee in lieu for public sidewalk construction if recommended by the town engineer due to site constraints or pending design plans. Condition one, prior to the submittal of a building permit, the applicant shall address comments in the in the traffic B&L peer review memo dated 9926. Address comments in the engineering Haley Ward board pay review memo dated 9926. Provide a full final plan set to the planning department. This shall include all site and civil plans, landscape plans, lighting plans, and architectural renderings and elevations. Provide formal approvals from the sanitary Scarborough sanitary district and the Portland water district. Also must execute and record a stormwater maintenance agreement with the town. The form of the stormwater maintenance agreement is located in appendix one of the town of Scarborough chapter 419 post construction stormwater infrastructure management ordinance. Also pay the chapter 19 stormwater maintenance agreement and reporting fee, a total of 750 dollars. Pay all review fees and invoices. Pay road impact fees, a total of 755 dollars, that's from the oak kill impact, and pay the recreation impact fee, a total of 480 dollars, that's 420 per bedroom. What did I say, 840 dollars? What did I say, man, it doesn't matter. Pay the school impact fees, total 11 391. You'll get your next paycheck. So all right, conditions continue. Number two, prior to the issuance of a building permit, the applicant shall reach out to the planning department at planningscarboroughmaine.org to schedule a pre-construction meeting for three weeks from the submittal date. The meeting shall include appropriate town staff, the developer, and their site contractor. Condition three, prior to the issuance of a certificate of occupancy, the applicant shall pay the sidewalk fee in lieu and submit evidence in the form of a letter or plan prepared and stamped by a professional engineer who either prepared the post-construction stormwater management plan and its associated facilities or supervise the plan and facilities construction and implementation. The letter or plan shall certify that the stormwater management facilities have been installed in accordance with the approved post-construction stormwater management plan and that they will function as intended by said plan and finally reach out to the planning department two weeks prior to a co inspection at planning scarborough main.org to schedule a final site inspection and establish a performance guarantee for any missing items and finally prior to the issuance of a signed permit the applicant shall provide a final signage plans this shall be reviewed by the planning department do i have a second? Thank you, Roger. Would you take the role, Aaron? Roger [52:03] Ed Hodgson: Bealey? Yes. Ed Hodgson? Yes. Marvin Gates? I don't think I'm a voting member this evening, but thanks. [52:11] Aaron (roll call clerk): Right, oh that's right, sorry, apologies. Jennifer Ladd? Yes. William Sedlak? Yes. And Rick Meinke? Yes. [52:22] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Congratulations, you have a new address. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the board and thank [52:26] Choral director, Scarborough High School: you to town staff for all your help with the project. Good luck. Thank you all. [52:34] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Right, moving on. We have M&R Holdings and LJB Engineers on behalf of Crossroad Holdings LLC is requesting subdivision amendment review, which will be the amendment number seven, to create 24 single-family residential lots, one multi-family lot, and two mixed-use lots for the Downs Town Center South residential district at Innovation Way, Assessors Map U53, three, lot 55. [53:04] Aaron (roll call clerk): And Aaron? Yes, so this is the seventh amendment coming through from the Downs for a subdivision amendment review to create 24 single family lots on one multi, one multi-family lot and two mixed-use lots for the downtown central south residential district. As you can see on the map, This area is right around the inner ring of the previous racetrack. The overall increase will be 18 acres to a total of 62 acres. They will be extending to existing public roadways, Front Runner Way and Cross Street, there's a new public roadway and private alleys incorporated into the subdivision. And the previous sixth amended subdivision was approved in September of 2022. So we have a little bit of a layout here that shows the on the right hand side the location within the downs relative to the innovation district pain road and Hyges north is to your left. And then a on the left-hand side a detailed view of the proposed subdivision as it stands today. Thank [54:28] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): you Aaron and for the applicant. [54:34] Dan Bacon (Crossroads Holdings LLC): Good evening Dan Bacon here on behalf of Crossroads Holdings LLC. Aaron did a great job of introducing the project so I was just going to add a little bit more detail here. [Ed Hodgson: We go thanks.] Just working on my screen here but just to remind the board I think it was a few months ago we went we came to you and received master plan approval for this area of the project as Aaron indicated this is in the vicinity of the original track so the inner track just east of the town center district that's currently under construction and we're moving forward where they're proposing to move forward with an 18 roughly 18 acre area to perform some additional housing that extends the town center residential part of the project to the north. This is the subdivision plan that was laid out to create these lots as well as right-of-ways and this plan gets into a bit more detail in terms of the specifics of the layout. So the proposal is to extend front runner way which is currently serves the town center residential district to the south it would be extended up and intersect with cross street which currently serves condominium development that's in town center so front runner would be extended north and cross street would be extended east to provide two means of access to this area of the project and then two more local streets are proposed to provide access to the lots within the single family portion of this phase of development. So the proposal is to create 24 alley loaded single family house lots roughly the size of the ones that we've we've performed a handful of years ago so in addition to having frontage for parking out in front of the lots we also would have access on The private drives to access garages that would be sited behind the homes fronting the street. In addition, we're providing some green space where for the lots would actually front a green, similar to the projects we did a few years ago where it's more of a pocket design, pocket neighborhood design, where some houses actually don't have a road out front but instead have a green out front. And this will provide green space not only for those house lots but also the rest of this area of the project. In addition, we're creating three larger lots that will come before you in the future for site plan review. One's on the right side of the screen here, which is south of the single family homes, and that actually abuts Hackamore North apartments, which is already complete, and there's a shared access from that site into that particular lot. And then the other lots are located to the west and to the north of the single family portion of this project. In addition, there's a stormwater detention pond that's proposed to provide stormwater management on the project, and that's located on the left side of the screen here. This is a zooms in on the landscaping plan for this part of the project. So, again, similar to our past residential phases, we'd have on-street parking, sidewalks that would have provide access to all the homes and connect to the adjacent development. And then we've planted or proposing to plant the phase with street trees along the sidewalks and also landscaping within the green space and lawn area within the green space. space again similar to past phases so it's along areas with lined by trees on both sides along the edge of the open space boundary that's kind of the high points here and I also have a utility plan if the board wants to get into utilities and stormwater daughter Drew's from Coral Palmer's they're not Coral Palmer LBJ is in attendance and can speak to any questions you have on utilities and how the site's going to be served so I think with that 's the overview of this phase of the project and I'm here as Drew's here to answer any questions as the board has. Thank [59:58] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): thank you dan this item is available for public comment anyone wishing to make a comment please go up to the podium anybody online all right seeing none i have closed public hearing and turning this over to my colleagues who wants to go first roger got your trigger on [1:00:25] Speaker H (unidentified): the and this these single-family homes they're essentially the same as an they're [1:00:34] Dan Bacon (Crossroads Holdings LLC): An extension of what's already on Front Runner. Yeah, the lot sizes are very similar, both the width, the size, and the depth of the lots, to what's on Front Runner. Yes, we expect similar size homes to be cited on these lots. Okay, that's all I really have. I mean, it's pretty [1:00:55] Marvin Gates: straightforward. So all right, Marvin. Thank you. Mr. Chair, Mr. Bacon, I was interested in the plans and looked at them with some detail, in some detail, and I could not figure out about, and I'm hoping, I know you can please tell me the public road access to those lots that you described overlooking green space, 78, 79, and 80. In the, you know, top [1:01:35] Dan Bacon (Crossroads Holdings LLC): right corner there, those three, is there public road access to them? So there's public road access to the private alleys which will provide access to the garages to those, lots. So if you look at the plan up the, no, I got it. Okay, I got that. And there's no idea [1:02:00] Marvin Gates: there's no, I think of the public being able to access my house. Yeah, and in this case, if you were the public and wanted to access those three lots, you would have to walk up the private [1:02:18] Dan Bacon (Crossroads Holdings LLC): alley or walk across the, is that public green space? Thank you. It's green space that will be owned and maintained by the associate, association, which those homeowners will be part of. So if you're a pedestrian and you want to walk to the front door of one of those four homes, you would walk down the sidewalk that's along the green space. It's right along the frontage, well, the lot line with the open space, and you'd have access to the front stoop of each of those homes. If you're driving to one of those houses, you could park to the rear and come through, say, the garage or side entrance. You also could park on the street and then walk down that same walkway that goes to the front of the homes. We can send you also pictures of what's out there today. We've done two different clusters of homes that way in the first few phases of the project. [1:03:20] Marvin Gates: No, you don't need to bother with the photographs. Thank you though. Yep, thanks. [Chair (presiding officer: Marvin.] Is Jen or William, Ed, [1:03:35] Speaker I (unidentified): do you have anything? No, the only question I had was the one that Marvin asked, actually. So I'm just late to the game tonight with questions. All right. Jen? [1:03:47] Town Planner / Planning staff: Okay, I have a few questions. First of all, thank you to your team here, Dan, for breaking out the PDFs that you submitted into specifically for the attachments at the end that was made it a lot easier to review for me anyway. And then I just have some questions about kind of access and connectivity. So relatedly the let's figure I understand the alley access to these four lots that will front on the open space, but I'm curious what the plan for access is to the lot 60 65 60 small number 63. What's how is that envisioned to be [1:04:49] Dan Bacon (Crossroads Holdings LLC): accessed because it looks like yeah my screen's small too so that's why I was okay. [1:04:55] Town Planner / Planning staff: 63 was to the south the larger continuous lot to the south of these so [1:05:03] Dan Bacon (Crossroads Holdings LLC): that lot will have frontage on front runner, but we've actually built so on the far right side of the screen here near the table space and bulk table there's actually a already built driveway that goes into Hackamore North Apartments. Yep, and it's designed to come in and be not only the access to Hackamore North Apartments but also development that occurs on lot 63. So that's one means of access and we've already established a kind of a cross easement for that to happen and we're you know at a future site plan when we figure out final programming we'll show you that kind of full design of how that ties into the to the parking design. There's also we anticipate a drive on the again it's not shown very well because it wasn't the focus of the application but the top of that parcel if you will. Yeah I can see your cursor sir. Yeah so that too is a drive that can be extended into lot 63. Very similar to a number of the other sites we've done in the other phases of residential where there's interconnected driveways which is you know a site plan expectation when they make sense. Yep okay great. Thank you. [1:06:39] Town Planner / Planning staff: Other questions I have. Okay, the right-of-way shown, or sorry, maybe it's not right-of-way, but the thing that looks like a right-of-way, drainage and utility easement is labeled to the north of these lots, smaller Lots that you're talking about appears to be narrower than the other than the standard 60 feet in width and then gets even more narrow as it approaches we're sort of planned left here past the stormwater management area and so I was just curious if you could maybe shed a little bit of light on that for us. And I'm generally asking because that to me looks like it's not envisioned to have frontrunnerway continue again on through those other lots to be continued, and so I guess I'm asking that question is that the plan to not to not extend front runner away again beyond this what you're showing here, and if not is there another option for trail or other connectivity through that space I [1:08:08] Dan Bacon (Crossroads Holdings LLC): Want to have Drew speak to the geometry at least of that area yeah [1:08:16] Drew Gagnon (LJB Engineering): Thanks members of the board thank you Drew Gagnon with LJB engineering so Jen for the utility easement we have a couple different things going on there we have a drainage line conveying flow from the subdivision to the detention pond so that's providing access and maintenance requirements within that easement and then about two-thirds of the way through that easement like right in the middle of where the dash line is for the detention pawn it kind of tapers down to a smaller easement that's Because that follows a proposed force main line so probably seven years ago or so when we did the first pump station on the downs we guessed an alignment for a force man coming down from the innovation district that goes all the way over to Haggis Parkway and we guessed a little bit wrong so we're going to move that line relative to where the detention basin is planned south along that utility corridor right there so that's just following a planned force main location to provide access for Scarborough sanitary district so does that answer your question [1:09:18] Town Planner / Planning staff: Sort of yes curious if there's any other plan beyond sort of like to is the access here intended to be just for the maintenance of these facilities or is there an intent to or can there be the opportunity to connect this to your trail network and or beyond and if not for through for vehicles which it sounds like it sounds like you're not planning to do that but I'm [1:09:53] Dan Bacon (Crossroads Holdings LLC): Curious about that too yeah I think we and to answer the trail question first the intention is to continue to expand trails in that area like we've done around other BMPs as you probably we recall with the gravel wetlands we have multi-use paths around them to get access to them and to get access to open space so we intend to do something very similar here we just don't have a site plan layout yet to know where that alignment makes sense other than that I'm going to call it a temporary kind of Access drive to the stormwater BMP because we anticipate, you know, developing on either side of that and formalizing that with a, an improved pedestrian surface and experience. So we're just not there yet, you know, in terms of finalizing the trail system there. And like, similarly, we're not there yet in terms of where maybe a north-south connection makes sense for connecting Cross Street up to Middle Street, which is the street just that serves internet that's just off your screen. So we didn't want to show it there and then not execute on it versus provide for whether it's a driveway or road. [1:11:18] Town Planner / Planning staff: We're not sure yet in that vicinity, okay. And perhaps safe to assume the same then for that looks like a trail alignment that's sort of sketched into the plant at the very top of [1:11:30] Dan Bacon (Crossroads Holdings LLC): this plan up here. Yeah, you can see my cursor. Yeah, that's, I think that's a bit more concrete in that there's just off the screen there's an upland gap in some wetlands that we intend to, that's why there's a wiggle, you know, we're just showing where that will ultimately go for a road wide of way that'll be a future phase that we'll review with the board. But that's, I think, more sure because we want to provide a connection from Cross Street over to a future road that's running north south in line with Pacer. So Pacer is the road that, you know, is most easterly and the phase that's to the south, we anticipate running that road up north south and then tying Cross Street into Pacer with a future application, okay, in that general location. [1:12:27] Town Planner / Planning staff: Great, thanks. The other, I guess the only other question I have, and maybe it's more of a statement than a question, but I just wanted to point out that this, amendment again identifies trips beyond what your current traffic movement plan is permitted for, and those are occurring on Saturdays. This came up also, I went back and checked, it was one of the bank projects that we saw at the July meeting, which exceeded that limit by 60 some odd trips, and the material here is saying now that you're going to exceed it by 85 trips, which I'm assuming is not an additional 85 because the scorecard just reads 85 in total exceeded, but I, you know, we talked about this a little bit at the last meeting, but I'm just curious, maybe if you could give an update on the status of the next TMP that would That would cover these additional trips and then just to kind of make my own statement about, you know, being somewhat uncomfortable exceeding those limits because it means that we're allowing, we're allowing trips that haven't been mitigated. And I know that particularly on Saturdays, I think, you know, again, we talked about this a little bit last time, but like Saturdays maybe isn't traditionally the, driver or like, you know, more important, usually it's like weekday AM PM that you're looking at in terms of heavier traffic demand from developments. I think it's pretty, I think it's interesting that the culmination of all of these things together has resulted in more Saturday traffic and or at least more of your allocated trips on Saturdays. And I think just frankly I think anybody that's traveling in and around this area on a Saturday can recognize that. And so if there wasn't, if we weren't, if I didn't feel like people were already feeling it, maybe I would feel differently, but I did just want to point that out and give you an opportunity to maybe give us an update on where you stand with the traffic permitting. Yeah, we're actively [1:15:08] Dan Bacon (Crossroads Holdings LLC): working with the town and DOT on the TMP, so it's been underway for a number of months and we think we're getting close to the back side of that process. So we're expecting to, you know, wrap up a permit as soon as we can. I can't give you a specific date because it's out of my hands, but the next few months hopefully. And we've been using 99 trips over the Saturday as sort of the target because that's when DOT expects an updated TMP at 100 trips past your current TMP. So we're well aware of it and we're working as fast as we can again to update the TMP. That's, it's basically where we're at and we are aware of the, I mean recognize the comments that we received. I would say also that this area is going to be really more connected to the Route 1 end, you know, from a traveling public side of things when the pain Road end is what we're, I think on Saturday in particular, seeing the most stress on. But that's the latest in terms of where we're at with the TMP. We hope to get it soon. Okay, great, thanks. [1:16:34] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Jen William, yeah, Jen, thank you for that. I feel [1:16:40] Jennifer Ladd: like I always learn something listening to you ask questions, and so thank you. The piece and I think it's just I continue to struggle especially with the project of this scope is what the right moment to ask you all for things, knowing there's kind of the hooks at different points are different. And so I think just the request that I have is figuring out with town staff at some point for you all to get back on the agenda and to think about the kind of, to the extent that you're able to, an update on the overall trail plan and pedestrian and bike and pen, the whole experience in there. Because I think we keep getting little snippets of it in different pieces and you guys are living this project and we are not in the same way and so my brain is porous and I could really use an update on what that looks like what you're thinking about it because I think this is a this is I think really the towns don't get opportunities to have new town centers and this is a really rare opportunity and so I think that's the piece that I don't want to lose sight of as we're thinking about the Commercialization the residential build out is that we're making sure that we keep an eye on the on the pedestrian and bike access throughout and so we just appreciate that would appreciate you all working with town staff and town staff may be finding a time in a future meeting for us to have a workshop or something where we can have a presentation just to really reground ourselves and what it means to be a pedestrian visiting this experience and for bike as well here [1:18:16] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Now we're happy to do that yeah I think that's an excellent idea and I know I was watching Autumn she was taking notes but yeah it's kind of been you know we see a little bit of the big puzzle and it would be nice to I know we went through the signage master plan you know several months ago and we had some input there and it was very helpful for us to have that dialogue and I think having a snapshot of division as it continues and where it is gives us a chance to continue that dialogue and in Making sure that this board can do its due diligence and support you but also support the community and making sure that the experience once they get into the downs is what their ex expectations are so I think that's a great idea the other thing I want to bring up is you know looking over some of our peer review comments. There's quite a number of comments from the Haley Ward memo, and I am a little reluctant at this point to bring a full motion to the table until you've had a chance to work through these comments and work with staff to ensure that things are going to be working as planned. And so I would look to my colleagues and see if we might get these folks back here next month on a consent agenda item, just to give them time to work with staff and their internal staff on some of these engineering comments. Three pages is a little more than my comfort zone is willing to go out. Would you be amendable to something of that nature? Yes, okay. Then at this point, I and Jen, believe it or not, I had the scorecard all up and I was ready to go hit that not minus 85 again after all you've taught me, but I'm glad you brought it up because you said it much more eloquently. At any rate, we'll see you next month and put it as a consent items pending working with Angela and her team and our peer. Thank you. All right. Thanks, Dan. Now the school district's turn, huh? All right, let's move on. We're all set to keep pounding away, right folks? We don't need a break. Okay, let's go on to Harriman Associates on behalf of Scarborough Public Schools is requesting an advisory opinion for site plan review on the Scarborough Middle School and Wentworth Primary School that includes renovation classroom expansions at 20 and 21 Quinton Drive and 11 Municipal Drive, Assessors Map R59, Lots 24 and 26. [1:21:39] Aaron (roll call clerk): are you going to introduce this one to us absolutely can i believe the school department will have plenty to share themselves as well their consultants but we have these two schools sort of grouped together on this application they both exist within the larger municipal campus that we are currently sitting on now as well as the high school in the public library which is at the 20 quentin f and we are still pending some main dep permits as well as traffic movement permits. I'll scroll through here. This is for the Scarborough, sorry, this is for the Wentworth School. The projected area is in the rear of the school here. It's a smaller addition and a slight adjustment to the fire lane there, as well as the further back into the lot is the Scarborough Middle School. In this proposal, there is the removal of portable classrooms and reconfiguration of parking. So this area here is currently a portable classroom, as is this one I believe, and they will be updated to be play area pavement, different parking configuration here, and the existing parking lot area here will be converted into a new building addition on that wing, as well as a small addition and improvement to the front entrance and foyer of the school. Thank you Aaron. With that, I will let the school department. All right, and fire [1:23:20] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): away. Good [1:23:21] Diana Netto (Scarborough Superintendent): evening. I'm Diana Netto, I'm the superintendent here in Scarborough, and I'm really excited to finally be in front of the planning board this evening. As most of you know, for the last several years the school district has been working diligently towards a space solution, and so I'm really excited to have my colleagues here from Harriman Associates describe that project to you in detail with the first two schools that we're coming to, with the plan to return next month I believe for our three primary schools. So thank you very much for giving us the time and attention this evening. [1:23:57] Speaker N (unidentified): Erin, before we get going, I have some PDFs here but I don't think i have permission to share my screen. Is that something you can give me? Just accept i have [1:24:07] Town Planner / Planning staff: already promoted you. Well [1:24:11] Lisa Sawin (Harriman, project architect): he's doing that. I'll introduce myself, my name is Lisa Sawin, I'm the principal in charge of the project architect at Harriman, and also with me we have David Latham civil engineer, we have other civil engineers and architects here, and representatives of the school district and building committee members as well, so lots of representation presentation. We are here to present the Wentworth Edition as we talked about and the Scarborough Middle School Edition. These are both two of five of the school renovation and expansion or replacement projects to address the increased enrollment that we're seeing in the out year, well currently and in the out years. I'll give a little bit more detailed Overlook of the project and then David can speak to any of the engineering and in stormwater and other things on the site and permitting. So this is Wentworth, this is the original school was designed for an expansion, so the core spaces were already designed to handle this expansion, it was permanent, it was determined to be in this location the systems were sized for this edition it is a three classroom addition to the existing and this will also have a minor renovation inside to address some of the special education program needs this does require a slight modification to the fire Lane we have met with the planning department as well as police and fire to review this David will go over this in more detail on how we're proposing that this work but you can see that modification right here on the site plan. So limited scope at the Wentworth School. In regards to the aesthetic, very similar to the existing school. It's going to look pretty much like the existing school. And then on the middle school, if we hop over to that one, this is to address the current overcrowding at the school. We have portables that have existed there since the 90s. And so there are the entire sixth grade is in portables, as well as there's another portable classroom out on site. The intent of this project is to make sure that all the students currently and in the out years can be housed within the school. So that addition you see in the upper right-hand corner is a one-story and two-story addition. The one-story portion has your music, band, chorus classrooms because they are being displaced by the increased size of the cafeteria. Currently, they had six lunches at the middle school which is not conducive to education there was one lunch that was split so essentially you go to lunch for you go to your class for 20 minutes you stop your lesson mid lesson you go to lunch and you return back to that same lesson so this will now take it down to more manageable number of lunches for the schedule which is around three and so the increase internally is a renovation. The two-story portion of that addition houses the spaces needed for the sixth grade two days enrollment, as well as the out years. And so that's what that two story is. And then the small addition that Erin mentioned in the front is we needed to expand the administration area and in particularly looking at increasing the safety and security of that main entry. And so I'll turn it over to David to talk more detail about the site all [1:27:40] Ed Hodgson: right thank [1:27:44] Speaker N (unidentified): You, Lisa, so starting with Wentworth, as we mentioned, we're going to be modifying the fire lane. I'll zoom in a little bit on that. We have the new addition here, obviously extends out a little bit, so we do end up looping it around. We've coordinated this with the fire department. They are good with the current layout. They believe they're going to be able to get their trucks around with no problems. We have modeled that here with the fire truck turning template. These turning templates are unique to Scarborough. We've modified the traditional format for that, so we do have evidence that it works. The big thing to note here is that moving the fire lane the way we are is pushing it about eight inches closer to those existing wetlands, which you can see is that dashed hash dash dashed hatch, excuse me, right over there. It's about eight inches closer at its closest point. To combat this and any environmental impacts that may come with that, we are adding new vegetation, new vegetation which is this patch right here. It's main hair fern, ostrich fern, and bottle brush Buckeye. Those are from the Scarborough approved plantings list. We are also ensuring that in our stormwater design we have less untreated impervious flowing into the wetland area in the post development than we have in the pre-development, so and we're not doing any work within the wetlands. So while the fire lane at points is getting marginally closer to the wetlands, we do not believe this project will have an adverse effect on them. Basically we're offsetting more than we're causing, for lack of a better phrase. So for stormwater, I'm sure you guys have read the Haley Ward memo. They had some concerns about our stormwater design. We've discussed with the city and we are going to be looking into different alternatives to treat the stormwater, and this is combined with the middle school as well. The most likely solution what we're looking at now is doing a forested buffer over at the middle school to provide treatment, and on the Wentworth building addition we're looking to recording with our plumbing team to tie the roof drains from the addition into the existing. Hopefully we'll be able to get that designed to work. If not, we're planning on doing underground storm water chambers in this lawn area over here, or perhaps a dry, yeah, dry well, something of that sort. But we do have potential solutions to the storm water question, so we will be meeting Scarborough standards there, as well as the standards of the main DEP in Terms of other utilities at Wentworth, there are no new connections being proposed on the outside sewer, water, everything like that's going to be connected on the inside and be serviced by the existing systems. We've been in contact with the sanitary district. They've confirmed they have capacity for the additions at Wentworth and at the middle school as well. Moving on to the middle school, as Lisa mentioned, we have this addition right here going on the west wing. It does eat into some of the existing parking. We're making that up with parking down over here. We have a parking table over here, so the existing, there's 152 spaces, the proposed, there's 153, so we're actually gaining a spot compared to what we have before, and we're putting all the students in a more centralized location. If we go over here, one area to note is this fire turn. We coordinated with the fire department. They wanted a little turnaround over here. It does stick out past where the existing pavement goes, gets a little close to the baseball field. Our survey didn't pick up where home plate is, but using Google Earth, we have an approximate 350 or 330 foot shot from home plate to the start of the fire truck template. By comparison, Fenway Parks right field line is 302 feet. So if a middle schooler is hitting that far, check their birth certificate. That's not a middle schooler, it's [1:31:55] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): right field that they hit it into, the into the trees. I know I've been firing there for many years. There's more lost balls in that section of that field. How many lefties do you guys have [1:32:06] Speaker N (unidentified): have? Thanks. Well, late swingers too. Well, yeah. Okay, so yes, as Lisa mentioned, we're removing the portables part over here. This is going to be a play area. This is going to be that additional parking, the stormwater buffer we can see here, and this is going into addressing Haley Ward's comments. We have a wooded area right here. It's not shown just because the viewport is cut off, but there are wetlands a little off-site. There's roughly 200 feet from the edge of the wetlands to the edge of the current Tree line, that's more than enough room. We could get a vegetated buffer in there without impacting the wetlands and should be able to provide treatment that way. The only real utilities work to note on the middle school, beyond just the storm drain stuff, is the sewer line. We're going to have a new eight inch connection coming out of the new west wing. It is going to connect to an existing manhole down in this loop right over here, and everything else, water, is going to be brought in from the existing building, just like with Wentworth. We've been in contact with the sanitary district. They've confirmed they have capacity for this edition. I believe that covers everything I need. Lisa, do you have anything else? [1:33:31] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): All right, what is yours? All right, thank you. Just a point of order, Autumn, do I have to do a public hearing on an advisory? Yes. [1:33:41] Ed Hodgson: We notified, noticed for one. Oh, okay. All right, so with that [1:33:46] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): in mind, I have to open this up for public comment. Anyone in the audience wish to make a comment, please step up to the podium. I [1:33:56] Shelly Nickerson: think I know you. I think I know you too. Shelly Nickerson for the record. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry, I've known him a long time. Anyways, looks like I'm the only one here regarded to talk about Green Needle Drive. So every time the town creates new buildings, new driveways, it tends to affect Green Needle Drive with storm water. Yeah, I didn't expect to get up here today, so I just want to make sure that when the town's talking about putting in extensions on the buildings, that they're paying attention to how much water, where it's going, on either end of Green Needle Drive. Those in the middle, I don't, I'm not sure how much they're affected, but on the end near the close of the middle school, it gets very wet there, as well as on the other end where I live. So that's, that's my concern. [1:35:10] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Thank you, Shelly. You're welcome. Anyone else? Anyone online? No. All right, I will close public the comment and just remind my colleagues that we're here to weigh in on some of our thoughts, and I'll kind of start it off a little bit. Are you sure with this addition to the middle school, I'm concerned about parking. It's the population has grown since this school was put in service, and I know we added portables, and you're telling us that the this expansion is for future growth. How is that going to impact the existing parking that you have? [1:36:04] Speaker N (unidentified): So as we mentioned the existing parking, we're actually gaining a space relative to what we are. So while that new building addition is going into the existing parking, we're making that up with the portable area that's being removed, and we're and adding parking spaces there. So what's the number that you're adding? It was 152 before, I believe we're at 150. Yeah, 152 to 153 is what you're adding. One space for potential growth, I mean one space, I mean I'm probably, is it full now? [1:36:36] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Now during the normal school time frame, I was just going to add, so the original school was built for [1:36:44] Diana Netto (Scarborough Superintendent): I believe over 800 students it has served in the past, and so although we're at about 700 of enrollment, I think that we need to keep that in mind in terms of the original plan. And then if we look at our enrollment studies, like on the high end, because again we can only go out 10 years with projections like that, school is slated to have just over 900 students in 2032. So we're building for the future, right, as it relates to the middle school. I think one of the primary concerns which perhaps we didn't speak in detail about this evening is really the safety and security concerns that are presented with having over 200 students in a portable that they have to walk back and forth throughout the school day. That has been a paramount concern for the school district for a very long time, and we're really excited that we're able to address that. So I just want to make sure that I'm bringing to the board's attention that this school has had a much higher enrollment historically than it currently does. All right, that's that's [1:38:05] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): helpful. I just want to make sure you have parking, enough parking, and absolutely if we go in there now we might as well get what we need. Yes, because it costs less. No, I mean that is a great [1:38:15] Diana Netto (Scarborough Superintendent): question. I think you know the one concern that I think we will not be able to address through this project is the reality that there is only one way in and one way out of that site because of the location. But we have studied that for a number of years and looked at other access points, and there is no simple way to be able to address that, quite frankly. So we completely appreciate that there have been a number of compromises that we have had to make as a district in order to meet the high level needs that have been identified. [1:38:50] Marvin Gates: All right, thank you Mr. Chair. May I, you asked a question about is the parking full now, and I'd just be interested in what the answer to that is. [1:39:06] Diana Netto (Scarborough Superintendent): You know, again, I think if you go to any of our school sites, there aren't like, if you're, if the question is like, is there a huge section of the parking lot that is unfilled each day, I would say that would not be correct. But I think that you know, the, for the day-to-day classroom experience, there is enough parking. I think the things that the middle school has had to make adjustments on have been special events, for example, open house, right, when each family is going to be driving over to the school. In their own vehicle, presumably, there is not sufficient space for that, but we have made accommodations as a school, right, so we might have open house for one grade on one evening and two grades on a second evening, so that we're being proactive in the way that we plan and organize. [1:40:08] Lisa Sawin (Harriman, project architect): Special events for the school, you're welcome. Let me just add one thing, that think about the proximity of Wentworth and the middle school too. The Wentworth parking was designed for larger events, so in that overflow, if that is needed, Wentworth is not a far walk from the wind, or the middle school is not a far walk from the Wentworth parking lot. [1:40:30] Speaker H (unidentified): Go ahead, Roger, on the, on the regarding the parking again, on the parking area just outside the gym, the existing parking space, there's net parking on both sides, and you're just eliminating the side closest to the gym, right, and so the other existing parking spaces were there with the original design, the 152. Right, so now it's going to be 153, you're adding one there, but you're removing the spaces where the new expansion is going to go. How many. [1:41:05] Lisa Sawin (Harriman, project architect): Spaces are being eliminated there. So one thing to keep in mind is those spots are all taken up with portables right now, so they're not available to the school. So the where the portables are right now are on top of some of the existing parking spots, so what's available to them right now is 152. We're taking those portables down, re-striping that for parking, and then keeping half of what was up by the gym. Okay, so you're basically going to be adding quite. [1:41:32] Ed Hodgson: Quite a number of new spaces that they may be new, but it's not of one, it's not of one additional. [1:41:39] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Space. Okay, they lost it when they put the portables, now they're going to get it back. Do you have anything else? No, I'll give you the floor if you want it. You know, the only thing. [1:41:50] Speaker H (unidentified): I when I look at the peer reviews and everything it seems like the biggest issue is going to be the traffic you know dealing with the with the additional the other thing that's interesting when i was reading about this when that middle school went in i mean i don't think nearly as many people bring their kids to school brought their kids to school in their own vehicles as they do now so that's a big change so who knows what's going to happen in [1:42:21] Diana Netto (Scarborough Superintendent): the future we keep hoping that parents will put their children on the yellow vehicles that we drive around the district every day and it is a year to year a year to year change right I know that in talking with our principals some of our schools have noticed ridership increasing and so I think those are individual decisions that are made by families according to what their schedules [1:42:46] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): look like yeah we know you're going through the traffic movement permit process so we'll we probably won't see that right autumn and have an opportunity to weigh in on no i don't think so because this is a municipal building you guys got an easy break from us we okay we can only do they just have to deal with us though yeah well i'll slip you [1:43:16] Speaker I (unidentified): some notes anybody ed do you have anything no the only thing i had was again the parking like I understand with the growth and everything else like yes you're gonna be you're not using all of the parking but I'm also just you know as you had said Wentworth is a good you know overflow so I think then that sort of answers my questions there thanks Ed Jennifer [1:43:44] Town Planner / Planning staff: hi thanks I 'm very curious about why we're not going to see this traffic movement permit even in an advisory role and i think the scale of it is really worth talking about so you know the item that we saw before this we were talking about you know 85 extra trips on saturday but these two additions combined are representing if i'm reading correctly something like 400 hundred new trips during peak hour period time period. And I just think that's a really significant increase to the traffic network here. And in a in a way and in a location in town that has really struggled with this. And so I don't know, I'm, you know, the traffic, the traffic memo brought up a lot of really good points. I would like to know if someone is doing a signal warrant analysis at the end of Quinton Drive and Route 1, because I don't like to guess at these things, but it's probably close to warranting one now without these additional trips. And also I just feel like that is a that is a very typical thing that we would ask to review with an applicant of any other project in town of, you know, of a certain scale. And this is this is very large from a traffic standpoint in terms of that comparison. And so, you know, there's, I'm sure that you will go through and address the points that were raised in the traffic memo. I want to cover two of them real specifically in just a minute. But, more specifically, like there's, I didn't see a lot in this, in either of these packages that points out, you know, some of the more, the more standard offsite mitigation items that we would see for projects of this scale. Things like improving internal intersection safety for bikes and pedestrians. And like, are you addressing the sidewalk condition all the way out to Route 1? Are you looking at the crossing even without a signal? Are you looking at the crossing at Quinton Drive and Route 1? You know, you talked a bit about the altering the fire lane access around the back of Wentworth, which makes sense. But I think there's really some other pieces here that as a board member, we would typically see on other projects, even smaller ones than this. And as a resident, I just know that this is a big deal to this community. And I'm preaching to the choir. I know all of you have been far more in depth in studying this and then even then I have and so anyway but I just wanted to make that point because I do think that the off-site elements here are an important part of what you are doing on site and I think they're an important part to the community too and if it's not in this public forum which is how and where we handle that typically with other projects I guess I'm just curious how else the community would and the board would have a chance to take a look at that well [1:47:33] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): that bodes as i said we don't typically see much beyond this phase but maybe as the chairman of the transportation committee maybe you can make yourself a note and say hey in the transportation committee look at the tmp angela what was it maybe as a question back to the [1:47:53] Speaker P (unidentified): An applicant though, what does the rest of your public process look like? Jen's point, when is there other stakeholder kind of hinge points that might have the opportunity to speak to? Because I know stormwater and traffic are both kind of missing. Yeah, so I know that there are [1:48:09] Diana Netto (Scarborough Superintendent): regular updates planned for school board meetings as well as town council meetings, and in addition we have a community forum that is being planned for late October to give the community an update and an opportunity to hear about the progress on the project. Because certainly when you can't see something visibly, people are wondering what is at work and where are we in the process, and so that is something that is under development at this time. I don't have the date in my head, but I believe it is late October. I can go check my calendar. [1:48:46] Speaker P (unidentified): Calendar, I guess as a follow-up for your engineer, you must have a date that you're submitting or where you are in the TMP process, and also for stormwater, since you don't, it is a, been a critical piece that we've, the town has dealt with the green needle and we have some studies around that, when you might have that submission ready for the community also, that we'd know like [1:49:12] Speaker N (unidentified): like to be aware of when those are. Yeah. So we did get the traffic movement permit draft from LJB. Oh, they're gone. But yeah, so we have that draft. We've reviewed it. It was just a matter of we need to get a signature on it and get the application check. We got both of those this night. So we're going to send that back to LJB, get that submitted, and then balls in MDOT's court. Regarding the stormwater, we just received a third party review approval from for the Cumberland County Soil and Water District, so they're going to be reviewing it. 's basically it still has to meet the standards of the DEP, it's just a faster way, obviously the DEP is incredibly overworked, so we, I've been in contact with Chris Baldwin over there, and basically my plan is to get him those plans pretty much right after we do this meeting. We didn't want to submit anything thing to him before you guys had a chance to give feedback and make any changes necessary to reflect [1:50:10] Speaker P (unidentified): that. But my understanding what you just said though is you haven't finalized what your storm [1:50:15] Speaker N (unidentified): Water is. So you said. Yeah, we know, like we know big picture what we're going to do with it. It was just a matter of like if there was any feedback from here, we didn't want to make any changes and then have to double back and do it again. I guess what I'm hearing is feedback is [1:50:28] Speaker P (unidentified): being conscious around that side towards Green Needle because it has been and like I said I can share studies that might be helpful for you guys too to take a look at for that side but I guess yeah so I'm just kind of curious what you're assuming for his review then yeah and [1:50:46] Speaker N (unidentified): just in terms of the concern with Green Needle the DEP standards is that the pre the post development flow rates and water quality need to be less in the two the 10 and the 25 year events than the pre so anything that get that gets approved is going to have less water going [1:51:02] Speaker P (unidentified): towards you then in the existing condition. Well I think the issue is volume so you're increasing volume but you're decreasing flow rates so it'd be important to take a look at that. Okay. [1:51:13] Lisa Sawin (Harriman, project architect): May I offer that once we have it done we meet back with you guys to review it? That would be [1:51:18] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): okay. I think that's where she was driving. She was driving that ship that way. I think we're the ones [1:51:24] Speaker P (unidentified): that will hear from residents too and there's concerns about traffic and storm water so [1:51:29] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): it'd be really good to get ahead of that. Thanks. Will you have your hand up? Yeah I do. I just I [1:51:37] Jennifer Ladd: feel I and I know this is an advisory opinion but I just want to underscore Jennifer's comments. It's something I just we are the citizens that are like the best and most likely to be positioned to be able to review these things with well I mean a critical eye with kind of the positive and negative along with that. And so I think when something like traffic and making sure that we are treating like things alike. And so I love that there's going to be a public feedback session. But I just, I want to just register as we think about how we structure as a town, as just a community, how we do processes, that I think there is an element of making sure that we have the information that we need in the complete form and just because we don't get that many bites at an apple and I know this town staff will hear about this as well but we exist in the community we'll hear about at the grocery store people know we're on planning board and I think there's an element you know for 400 plus additional trips. I think that's just, is, making sure that we keep a process that feels, that feels true and feels like one that, you know, that we, that honors our expertise. And so that's just something I would push all of us to think about for counselors that may listen later and just town staff more broadly, just would encourage that. Thanks. [1:53:08] Marvin Gates: Will I have one question for Madam Superintendent? I heard you describe the event in late October that would be open to the public. Yes, and during that event comments from the general public will be welcome. Yes, that's correct. [1:53:29] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Thank you. Thanks, Marvin. I think everybody's had a chance and I'll just close things up a little bit. There's a couple of things that are different now than they were when Wentworth was built, i.e., we changed our building and energy codes, so those things have to be taken in consideration. And certainly I think back when the middle school was open, I don't even think we had a uniform building in energy code. So and the other thing we have is the Scarborough comprehensive plan and we're really trying to mitigate the effects of climate change on the built environment by encouraging sustainable building practices and operations. I heard a comment saying that we don't have to do anything with our HVAC because the current system will handle it well. That current system was then, I guess, put in oversized, which in today's world [1:54:37] Lisa Sawin (Harriman, project architect): is not a good thing. I'll just comment on that. It has the ability to be expanded. [1:54:41] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Okay, so module expansion. So I'm assuming Wentworth is air conditioned, right? [1:54:51] Lisa Sawin (Harriman, project architect): Wentworth is operated by a geothermal system. [1:54:54] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Geothermal and cooling. And none of the wells will be affected with this and you don't have to do any redrilling or anything like that. And what about the middle school? [1:55:03] Lisa Sawin (Harriman, project architect): Fully air conditioned. I believe that is fully air conditioned, Todd. Yep. Yes, the existing is okay and [1:55:09] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): that's also water source heat pumps, right? No, what do you have there in the existing cooling [1:55:15] Lisa Sawin (Harriman, project architect): tower? The existing, so this, the addition is going to be a separate system from that. We're not, yeah, we're not modifying the existing system itself or something, a separate system. Okay, so the air [1:55:27] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Conditioning system, which I think is, you know, we have to put air conditioning in our schools today throughout Maine, and been a real advocate for that over many years. The idea of a cooling tower does not excite me. It's very energy intensive, and I would employ to you that air source heat pumps work in Maine, and they work really well, and they're the bottom line is over the life their operation is cheaper, and geothermal is certainly a good system, but there's some pros and cons, and because this is already an existing facility and wells are there, I think adding on to geothermal is a smart approach. I just would encourage you to remember our carbon emissions is being encountered by our sustainability committee, and we're trying to live up to a goal of the reduction, and I might as well say it, there's a climate action plan being reviewed now for the town that was done through a grant, and is really going to give us some ideas on sustainability, and in encouraging the built environment to be responsible when we build out. So I would employ that continue with the model that Scarborough has of reducing the effects of that built environment. [1:57:07] Lisa Sawin (Harriman, project architect): And also we focus on the envelope first, so. [1:57:10] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Yeah, and that's changed over since when it was built, there's some tweaks that need to be made. Need you, well, you need to observe those the 2021. I would propose that you might even just voluntarily go to the stretch code. We have to work within the bond of the project, so we have [1:57:29] Lisa Sawin (Harriman, project architect): to work with them, yeah, but we need to work within the codes that are required. Understood, but and [1:57:36] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): that's always the easy answer is to say we have to follow the budget. The budget goes on and on and on with these buildings as well, so please do your due diligence in trying to help the town meet its goals. That's all I have. Anybody else? Seeing none, do you have what you need from us, Autumn? We didn't really, we put out some points there, I think you can go back to staff and hash it out. Yes, all right, thanks for joining us tonight, and good luck as you continue the progress. We want to keep plugging away, no break needed. All right, we've got two sketch plans to go over, and that's it. So the first one is Fresh Pickens Farm is requesting site plan review to transition and grow the agricultural operation located at 162 Spurwick Road, Assessors Map R 98, lot 18. [1:58:55] Aaron (roll call clerk): Erin, you want to run us through this one? Yeah, absolutely. So Fresh Pickens is an existing business in the region. Current operations are in Cape Elizabeth, right around the corner from this proposed site. They are looking to acquire this property on Spurwick rank road, and they have a number of, we think, exciting opportunities and plans for the future, some of which will require a special exception review and approval from the zoning board of appeals based on our current zoning ordinance. And so they are here before you tonight in order to discuss some of those proposed site plan elements before they go to the zoning board in order to sort of take a pulse on what the planning board feels, and hopefully hash out some of those elements prior to bringing it forward for the formal appeal process with the zoning board. So, as I said, several things will require special exception review that includes employee housing on site, which they propose in order to support the farming activities. Camping and tenting also falls within that special exception and is related to the employee housing, and then some commercial outdoor recreation opportunities such as pick your own flowers, fruits and vegetables, farm dinners like a farm to table dinner, workshops, tours, and then the potential for weddings and events in the future. Sure, so I think that's it, that's an overview for now. We also have a site plan here that is the sketch plan, I should say, sorry, and I'll let you take it away. All right, and for the applicant, [2:00:48] Dan Marion (Fresh Pickens Farm): good evening, thanks for having me here tonight. My name is Dan Marion, I'm the owner of Fresh Pickens Farm. I started the business in 2010, and today we operate a flower and herb farm in Cape elizabeth. We've been looking for a place where we can, where we can set down roots for the long term, and now we have the opportunity to purchase this 14.8 acre farm at 162 spurwink road. Over the past year we've been working closely with the scarborough land trust on a conservation easement that would permanently protect the property for agriculture. That process has helped shape our vision for the farm, not just for the next few years but for decades to come. Agriculture is the starting point for everything we're showing you tonight. We plan to gradually transition fresh pickings into the property, establishing flower and herb production, greenhouses, honey production, and the infrastructure needed to process, store, design, package and distribute what we grow. We're fortunate that the property already has a farmhouse barn and other farm infrastructure that we'd like to make use of and we'd like to make use of those existing buildings wherever ever possible. Beyond production we're exploring several ways to support the farm and create opportunities for the community to experience agriculture. These include an agricultural product store selling our products and those of other local producers, pick your own flowers, farm dinners, workshops, tours and educational programs. We'd also like to explore using the existing post and beam barn for gatherings and events along with the potential seasonal event tent. We recognize We recognize that the public use of these spaces would involve additional building fire and safety requirements, which would need to be addressed as the plans develop. A few other long term components include employee housing which Aaron mentioned to support our workforce, a small seasonal camping area with 10 platforms and a shared bath house and continued use of the existing farmhouse. of course all this would need to be supported by appropriate infrastructure including parking access and circulation, emergency access, water, wastewater, storm water management and utilities. Or what we're presenting tonight is a long-term framework not a final build-out plan. Agriculture comes first and we envision the other components developing gradually over time potentially over many years. The conceptual map on the screen is the same map we've been working through on the conservation easement with the scarborough land trust. It identifies the farmstead area, agricultural structures area where future buildings and infrastructure would generally be concentrated along with the area being considered for seasonal camping. The remaining land would be protected for crop land use. One of our priorities is making sure the conservation easement and the town's requirements work together. We want to permanently protect this land for agriculture while preserving enough flexibility for the farm to grow and remain economically sustainable. Ultimately our goal is simple, to take an existing farm in scarborough keep it in active agriculture and build a diversified farm business that can be that can remain viable for generations to come. We're excited about the opportunity and appreciate the chance to bring this to you early in the process. We're here to listen hear your thoughts in the overall direction and understand what we should be considering as we move forward. Thank you. Thank you. [2:04:13] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): And this item is available for public comment, but I don't see much of the public left, and nobody online. All right, so we'll close public comment. And who wants to go first? This is a fun little project. Anybody from the virtual world want to hit it [2:04:33] Marvin Gates: first? William? Maybe? [2:04:36] Town Planner / Planning staff: Sure, I will. I'm just curious. If you have, I can't quite connect all the pieces in my head here. But I think that this is close by to other land that the land trust just acquired that I also think is intended to connect to the Pleasant Hill Preserve property. I could have that wrong, but either way, even if this doesn't connect to any other properties, I'm curious if you have given any thought to any type of trails around perhaps the perimeter and whether or not those would be open to the public and or if there is the potential to connect to other conserved areas with trail networks themselves if that's something that you would be interested in [2:05:30] Dan Marion (Fresh Pickens Farm): or able to do. Yeah, that's a good question. It's something that I haven't really considered yet as far as like letting the public go through the farm. I think I'm concerned to some extent with like the farm operations and tractors being used through there, so there's a safety aspect to that. But I will say the back portion of this parcel was purchased by Scarborough Land Trust and that does connect up to the Pleasant Hill Preserve. So not crazy. Okay, I think that would be a cool [2:06:04] Town Planner / Planning staff: opportunity if it presented itself, and you know, if certainly you know as any site should, if they are including any type of connectivity, it should always be done keeping in mind the central operations and safety of what you have going on. But I think sometimes actually a trail network can be beneficial for that because if it's done well, it can be really helpful in communicating where people should go and then perhaps maybe where they shouldn't. That was my only comment. I think this is a cool project too. [2:06:41] Dan Marion (Fresh Pickens Farm): I'll say one more thing. Definitely the front part of that property we want to have a lot of interaction where the public can come in, cut flowers, experience that kind of pond area there. As far as we're kind of the like I said the operations in the back, I haven't really gotten that far yet, so that's something that I'll definitely discuss as I start to work with an engineer and understand how that could all fit in. Thanks Jen. Go ahead Roger. [2:07:11] Speaker H (unidentified): Is your, I'm just kind of curious, your existing place at Cape Elizabeth, is it just as you're going up on the right before you get to like Crescent Beach? Yeah, when you, if you're [2:07:25] Dan Marion (Fresh Pickens Farm): going from the Scarborough town line crossing the Spurwink River, yeah, you'd go by kind of the Charles George without past that, you go across the Charles Jordan Road and also Fowler Road. Yeah, It's actually right where the start of the beach to beacon is. Oh, okay. But that's one aspect of what we do. That's kind of our public facing part of the business because we grow the majority of our crops about four acres down inside Ram Island Farm. Okay. So if you go all the way down the Charles Jordan Road, there's a gate there with the two rams on either side. And that's where we lease our land in there. [2:07:59] Speaker H (unidentified): Now, have you touched base with any of the abutters of this property? [2:08:04] Dan Marion (Fresh Pickens Farm): I've met them. I haven't told them really about the plan yet. No. So do you anticipate any problems with any [Speaker H (unidentified): of your butters?] No, I hope not. Was this a working farm at one time? This was, yeah. It's funny, the owner before Jim Fault, who owns it now, it actually was a flower farm, which is kind of serendipitous that 's what we do and potentially taking it back over. And that was pre-1976 so it was an operating farm this whole area along that part of Spurwink was all farms and this is in the rural farming district yeah and well I think it's kind of an [2:08:48] Speaker H (unidentified): interesting concept and I'm just kind of curious about one other thing when you when you look there's a winding looks like a long driveway goes up where that notches is that a cluster of homes right there a couple see the notch yeah right yeah [2:09:15] Dan Marion (Fresh Pickens Farm): i 'm not exactly sure what that is that's on the neighbor's property or spy i think i it's not [2:09:23] Ed Hodgson: homes those aren't homes little white spots no it looks like debris it's from the glacier that [2:09:31] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): stop there's a bunch of saying yeah i remember that you probably do [2:09:36] Speaker H (unidentified): no i thought it was actually where we had our daughters go to daycare okay but i think this is a very interesting concepting and good use of this property and [2:09:50] Marvin Gates: should be interesting to see how it evolves yeah thank you marvin i have a question related to the fact that you're not the owner correct and so I 'm I feel as though you're applying here as a contingency to purchase if I may not have the language exactly right and I'm curious why we're seeing it again I'm relatively new to the board full disclosure pleasure but and when you know not to bore everybody senseless but when i did this 13 14 15 years ago and researched the possibility of buying a property, I dealt extensively with town staff to see does my vision match at all what's possible here, and once I got within the ballpark, Mark, of thinking yeah I think I might be able to pull this off, I bought it and then appeared before the zoning board of appeals, didn't have to appear before this body, and I'm and I'm feeling like I don't want to get involved with a contingency purchase. I don't want to give advice I'm not qualified in a certain sense, I mean maybe I am as a planning board member but so my question for staff is why, and forgive me I don't mean to be rude, why are we seeing this? They have a purchase [2:11:29] Town Planner / Planning staff: and sale agreement, and this is probably about 90 of the things that you see are going to be like this, okay, where and this sketch plan is also not required but we recommended it because they're going to zoning board of appeals in a couple of weeks, and Roger to your point we will send out official 500 foot notification then, so Dan will certainly meet his neighbors then if they do have concerns, but this is pretty normal for us Marvin, that's why the we require the information [2:12:01] Ed Hodgson: on how you have control or may have control on this property. Why I read the purchase agreement and again just to dot all the i's and crosses it really makes sense because there would be no [2:12:17] Town Planner / Planning staff: point to purchasing it if you couldn't in fact do what you wanted to do with it, so I think it's this is why this process exists to allow you with the permission of the sellers to be able to go [2:12:28] Marvin Gates: through this, so the planning board will give its sign off and the zoning board of fields will give [2:12:33] Town Planner / Planning staff: its sign off prior to purchase most likely. I don't know exactly when who will purchase it, but once he discovers through that, so the zoning board has to look at the specific uses, some of the things he wants to do he can do now, so there's a portion of his idea, his long-term plan, he can do now, but the things that really I think make this land lucrative for the investment is reliant on the [2:12:57] Ed Hodgson: Zoning Board of Appeal approval of the special exception uses, and finally you've mentioned I [2:13:05] Marvin Gates: look i 'm here to conform to the rules not anything else so i appreciate that very much you've my last question sort of totally unrelated to this is you've but related to purchase you've mentioned the scarborough land trust are they going to be an owner of this property [2:13:25] Dan Marion (Fresh Pickens Farm): That's a, that's a good question. It ties into what Autumn was saying. So right now we're in the process of crafting that easement, and that easement is kind of what polices the land. The Scarborough Land Trust will be the holder of the easement that goes over this land, and the goal of that easement is to keep this in agriculture well beyond me. So I've had a really unique opportunity to be a part of the shaping of this easement, and my kind of expertise that I'm bringing from my farming background to make it so that this can be viable not only for me, but this lives on way after that. So and to your point that you said before, we're in that crafting process of the easement, so if there's things that can't work on a town level or a zoning board level, we can make that adjustment now so that we can make it work, and that's kind of the point here is that it's harmonious for me as the farmer now and farmers for the future, the town, and also the Scarborough Land Trust. So there's this little symphony working together. No, I appreciate that, and that's [2:14:31] Marvin Gates: beautifully put. My question though was, are they going, I mean, is part of the purchase, are they going to be putting forward monies to purchase the property? No, they are not putting forward money. [2:14:47] Dan Marion (Fresh Pickens Farm): They're helping split some of the costs of like the survey and things like that, but I will be buying the property, and I'm buying it with this easement attached to it. So to get a little bit more in the details, it's what's going to be called a simultaneous closing. We're all going to be sitting at a table, Jim, me, and the land trust, and once we sit down to do that, everything will at one time. Jim will sign the easement, and then he'll convey the land to me. Thank [2:15:17] Marvin Gates: you. I hope I didn't invade anybody's privacy there, and I heard the town say how excited they were about it. I certainly don't want to get in the way of that. So what they think, thank you. Yeah. [2:15:32] Speaker I (unidentified): Yeah, I just wanted to say, I'm very excited about this. I think, again, preserving this land is fantastic given its time as being this. And wish you all the luck in this and hope this endeavor comes to fruition for you. Thanks, Ed. Will? [2:15:56] Jennifer Ladd: Yeah, this is an incredibly interesting project. I think I have lots of questions. And so I think my excitement, I'm going to say, is irrelevant. You and I could maybe talk about that some other time outside of this. But it's just, I think there's a lot of pieces that I have questions about. And full disclosure, in my day job, I'm Andrew Mackey's counterpart out west. And I have a property that we inherited that is, the property is encumbered by an easement and the successor owner basically couldn't make the farm viable because of restrictions in the in the easement and so I think the thing that I would just encourage you as a planning board member here is there's a lot of moving pieces in this and there's I know you know that because you're experiencing this in real time is making sure that the things that you know the ZBA is going to ask for or not are good I think the neighbor outreach is essential and I would say as essential as appearing here in front of us today especially thinking about the agritourism elements parking that may be associated with agritourism parking for events I'm thinking about the you know all the wonderful events that Snell Family Farm in Buxton does and what the experience of living next to Snell is both positive and on say Rhubarb Day or Tomato Day or the like. And so as you go down this route, my recommendation as a planning board member is just get ahead of those curves. We've seen that. It was the most successful ones, and to my mind, are the ones that are really thinking about that and making sure, as to your point, the core business here in the farm. And if that works, that's awesome. I love the notion of, I think, to the extent that public trails can safely interact and that does exist at other farms you know Skyward Land Trust has that experience with some distance at Broad Turn Falmouth has that with some of the farming with the New American population I think we have an opportunity to make sure that people see what good farming looks like and you run a good farm and so that is just encourage you in this process to think about that and just the cautionary tale that as you're crafting the seasonments you can't really and that you of course can amend an easement but it involves people going in front of Superior Court down the line and so be careful and I look forward to hearing what CBA thinks about [2:18:25] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): this project thanks will well you've heard from my colleagues and i'll just summarize what a lot of said is that this is a very interesting project we're involved in the use of the land and others worry about the public interest but I can't help but say this has a lot of public interest in it in that the value of what you are attempting to do here really has some benefits and i you know we're just talking to the school district and wow what a neat thing for a school bus to show up and have a bunch of kids learn what's going on here i wish you the best at the zba i can't imagine if i was sitting on there and saying well do you need permission to have a few tent platforms yeah okay that seems to make a little sense on a on a on a farm and to keep your bottom line going you do need to be able to sell what you make and to have those opportunities on this site seems to make a lot of sense i'm glad you're keeping the post and beam barn that 's a really good thing but you know you're gonna have to deal with waste and storm water and all that other stuff that goes along and I guess I'm trying to say the staff here is your best friend, they'll get you through it, but I think you're on the, you're going in the right direction, that this is certainly a good use of this site and it's got a lot of public benefit for having this, so good luck, and do you have any questions for us or need any sort of direction? [2:20:33] Dan Marion (Fresh Pickens Farm): I think you're going the right way. It was, it was great to hear your comments, so thank you very much, I appreciate your time, and yeah, keep working with the [2:20:43] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): staff, they'll get you through it, and hopefully you'll have a good night at the ZBA and we'll see it again if you come back, we know it was good. Okay, all right, and finally we'll plug through and get the last item. This is DM Roma on behalf of So Well Sowd LLC is requesting site plan review for a proposed residential duplex development to construct five duplex style buildings located at the Cottages at Sawyer subdivision lot three, assessors map U54 lot three. Erin, you want to give us a rundown on this one? Sure, so as you stated this [2:21:31] Aaron (roll call clerk): Is a sketch plan for a five duplex residential development. The original subdivision was approved in May of 2020. The it's part of the Cottages at Sawyer Way subdivision, but this is on the Preservation Way street, and I will just scroll down here to show a proposed sketch plan. So this is a new right-of-way that would come off of Preservation Way. It is crossing some wetlands, and then there are five duplexes for a total of 10 units per post towards the rear of the lot. [2:22:12] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Thank you. And for the applicant. [2:22:18] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): Is there any way I can share? Sure. Should I put? I got you. Oh, thank you. [2:22:38] Town Planner / Planning staff: Did you see the request come through? You have to accept it. I'll send it. [2:22:41] Ed Hodgson: There we go, there you go, so [2:23:04] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): Yes, Jason Haskell with DM Roma Consulting Engineers. Here with me tonight is a Will Van Wickler with SOWD LLC. So yeah, we're looking at Preservation Way. It was lot three of the original Cottages Sawyer. It was originally approved with this specific lot was originally approved with three duplexes and four single families, so 10 total. So what we're proposing is to take that same combination and make it five duplexes of the same total of 10 units. The ground floor of each one of these units is going to be a garage. So there'll be a single car garage on the base at the ground level, and then the living space will be on the second and the third stories. The an additional parking space will actually be in the driveway in front of the unit. So they'll technically there'll be two parking spaces per unit, exceeding what's necessary by the zoning ordinance for duplexes. There was also in the approved subdivision there was a 15-foot landscape buffer around the south and the east side of this lot, mostly because it was on the outside the outer perimeter of the overall subdivision. So we're definitely going to be looking into that. We'll we'll go out there, take a look at what the existing vegetation looks like. If they're sizable trees, then maybe we can work that into the design and then go from there. The it's about 270 feet from Preservation Way to the first unit, so it's quite a long driveway to come into the site. Just because of the shape of the lot, we've kind of centered a lot of the development In the larger portions with kind of the linear portion of the property just having the driveway through it, right now we're showing it as 24 foot wide. It'd be nice to get some comments on at least for that longer stretch if the planning board would be willing to do some type of reduction there, but we can get into that when we're all done. The all the public utilities are already out in Preservation Way, including the stubs, so they should all be ready to go. Actually, I'm I gotta see if water's been subbed, but either way we'll get that all squared away by the districts before we move forward with the design side. The traffic on this that was brought up in the traffic memo that there should be less traffic with this design versus the approved design with the single family and the duplexes, as the duplexes generate typically less traffic. We are showing some wetland impact just based off of the shape of the lot. We have to go through a series of wetland Crossings to get into the property. The total should be below the 4 300 square foot threshold that's typically set up for the main DEP's process for wetland permitting, but since the overall project already has a wetland permit, the NRPA tier one wetland fill permit, we're gonna have to go through and amend that to include the additional wetlands, even though it's typically not something that we'd have to go to the DEP for. So some of the other, so the permits that we'll need to amend is the stormwater permit through the main DEP, the Site Location and Development Act permit through the town, the wetland impact permit through the DEP, and then also the additional permit for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. So really what I'd like to get out of the board tonight is to talk about the reduction in the width of the driveway. way this may be something I need to talk more with Angela about to see what the real minimum would be, but at least get some idea of your thoughts on that, and then also what you've kind of done in the past with the landscape buffer, if you do allow for the existing I guess vegetation to be the buffer or if you require more supplemental work than that. So we already do have all the initial comments which will be addressed at the formal submission. We'll work closely with staff on addressing those comments and on as we move forward and we look forward to working on the project. Thank you. Thank you and finally this is open for public [2:28:09] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Comment, but not many people hang out with us at night. Yeah, and I'm assuming there's nobody online. All right, that is public comment is closed and turn it over to my colleagues. You [2:28:30] Speaker H (unidentified): go ahead, Roger. So you said, I think I heard you say that when this development was approved initially, there were, did you say there were three apartment [2:28:44] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): complexes, buildings in there approved? So in the original approval, in the original subdivision, lot three, which is this right here, kind of at the entrance of the site, yeah, that was approved for three duplexes and four single families. I'm not sure the history of why that number was in there. I mean, it could be, it seems like it could be any one of many orientations of, okay, I [2:29:20] Speaker H (unidentified): just see my name on this thing and I don't remember that. [2:29:25] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): I do, I do remember. Were you the original engineer on this? No, I was not. Okay, it was [2:29:31] Speaker H (unidentified): really challenging with all the wetlands and everything like that. Yeah, oh, actually I'm [2:29:36] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): sorry, Roger, but the one item that we did run some investigation on is the wetland fill bill that's shown on the subdivision plan was never permitted through the DEP, and we tried going back and forth with the DEP and they couldn't find anything that said this specific lot was included in that, which is the reason why where you got to do this additional permitting for the additional wetland impact. I had nothing to do with that. I didn't think you did. [2:30:14] Speaker H (unidentified): Well, I don't, I have no, I mean, I have no problem reducing the width of the road. I imagine, do you plan to have any sidewalks right there also on that road, or that wasn't the [2:30:28] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): intent? No. Okay, are there sidewalks throughout the rest of the development? Yes, on the opposite [2:30:36] Speaker H (unidentified): side of the street, but you're not planning on any on this stretch going into these duplexes? [2:30:41] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): Not particularly. Okay, what's [2:30:46] Speaker H (unidentified): what's, what's the position staff, what's the position on the buffering? I think he's asking, can use the existing trees as the buffering, right, or [2:31:00] Ed Hodgson: We want to go for the offering of the position that the landscape buffer should follow the site plan ordinance. [2:31:09] Town Planner / Planning staff: I'm of the position that the site should have a sidewalk connection, and i'm of the position that the site should have additional parking, because we have this exact same scenario and another development in town that we get continual complaints about no parking for guests and overflow. flow so i 'm not in the position to offer you gays for waivers at this point with the amount of [2:31:34] Ed Hodgson: information that we have received. Okay, you [2:31:40] Speaker H (unidentified): all set? I think so at this point. Okay, I don't know [2:31:43] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Where else to go? Anybody in virtual land have their hand up? I bet you Jen does. I might hand up. [2:31:50] Jennifer Ladd: Up, but I, yeah, I think I have concerns. I also would love to see, I mean, I, this, as we think about the location of this property and sidewalks, that feels like a no-brainer to the point of I don't know if a requirement, because I don't have enough information in front of me at this moment, but like I would want to see that, knowing what we've asked for others and how we want to see some of the other systems in town kind of work together. It's it's a lot of wetland impact, and that gives me pause, especially considering what was just disclosed. And I think that single car, I was thinking about a development and I'm glad there's at least an analog in Scarborough to draw from, because I was thinking about an analog in Portland that I somehow ended up in and I couldn't figure out how to get myself out of the development without trespassing. And so, you know, if you take a wrong turn and it's not designed well, I think that's a problem, both as a guest and also just knowing about safety. So I just, I do need a lot more information. I don't know if I can weigh in one way or the other on anything and encourage the team to work diligently with the town staff on making sure we have more to work on. [2:33:25] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): thanks will so with the wetland impact the original approved subdivision plan showed over 9 000 square feet of wetland impact and we're now down to 4030 so we're trying to you know reduce as much as we can but we also do have another option that I know you didn't have a [2:33:48] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): chance to review it but I'm just curious on well we can't review any material that we don't have now good enough all right I just have it right if you want to have an alternating your if you come back with to see us again and you want to redo this we'll look at that too would we [2:34:10] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): say that we do go with another option, are we required to come back for another sketch plan, or can we just move forward to the design and the formal submission? [2:34:19] Town Planner / Planning staff: You can move straight to the submission if you want. Yeah, what I mean, if you, does it hurt since it's a sketch plan to see it? Doesn't, I was just trying to follow [2:34:29] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): protocol, but I'm hearing she wants to be enlightened by your alternate plan and I [2:34:58] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): Yeah, so this is kind of what we've come up with. This design reduces the wetland, gets that one building out of the wetland, and the only drawback of this one is the vicinity of these, the units three, four, and five, six, they're showing about, I want to say it was six or seven feet between the buildings. So we're kind of restricted by or constricted between the setbacks, the wetlands, and we're trying to fit what we can in here. We'll obviously, with those two buildings being so close to each other, we'll definitely work with the fire department on those requirements and what they're going to be looking for, but again, something we can also continue talking with staff on, their thoughts on that. [2:35:54] Speaker H (unidentified): Okay, you [2:35:58] Town Planner / Planning staff: can reduce down to five foot with fire rated [2:36:02] Ed Hodgson: walls, but you'll have to do some construction. These are likely to have to be sprinkled too, [2:36:07] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): because you're not on a hydrant system, or there is a hydrant at the end. Okay, there is a hydrant right there. We're not going to draw the wetland. I would just ask is, I don't know if [2:36:22] Town Planner / Planning staff: this is just the plan that you have, but how do you consider doing triplexes then? [2:36:32] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): You would, yeah, well, you know, so yeah, definitely for the resale perspective of it, and then also the requirement for the sprinklers of each of, each of the units, because now you've got three units. [2:36:48] Ed Hodgson: We'll definitely thinking about, yeah, go ahead Jen. [2:37:01] Town Planner / Planning staff: I was just going to add, for what it's worth, I, for an effectively dead end street with only 10 units on it, is the idea that this would be, would this be a public road or remain a private way? [2:37:18] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): This would be a private condominium development. Okay, either way, I'm just [2:37:26] Town Planner / Planning staff: not sure that warrants a dedicated pedestrian facility that would, should be pretty low volume coming in and out of there, and it should be low speed, although you are designing it with a, with a pin straight roadway here. And so my first, my first comment is that I don't think that I would be in favor of not requiring a dedicated sidewalk along this roadway. And I think that perhaps the development could contribute towards, I, and I'm forgetting if there is sidewalk facilities on Preservation Way, but maybe there's a crosswalk at the end or something like that, or just otherwise bolstering whatever the other part of the network that this might be tying into. to first point and then second point and I get it you I say it's a pin straight roadway but that's because like the leg this leg of land here is also very straight and you're you're trying to thread the needle between a lot of different constraints here but if there was the opportunity to deviate this roadway from anything other than straight in a way that still meets the other requirements that you have to meet maybe you end up shedding a little bit of wetland impact i'm not sure but certainly from a speed standpoint i think that would benefit the residents that will go on to live here if you were to consider that or be able to work that out [2:39:01] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): so i just wanted to offer those two points thanks jen go ahead roger would eastern road would [2:39:12] Speaker H (unidentified): that make a good template for this road [2:39:15] Speaker P (unidentified): narrow with i don't think i wouldn't call this a road i think i'm i'm agreeing with jen as this is a driveway yeah it's a of a site so, I don't necessarily see it with the volumes that you're talking about Eastern road is kind of a different animal volumes necessary to designate that I mean it doesn't hurt to paint a stripe down the road. If they choose to it, 'll wear off and I don't know if they'll get repainted. [2:39:52] Speaker H (unidentified): I mean, I only brought it up because of some, people have a concern about having a sidewalk day. Oh, yeah. [2:40:00] Speaker P (unidentified): But I think to Jen's point, I think the concern of needing a sidewalk would be speeds that you can kind of, I think there is a way to kind of sweep that around and actually maybe give you more room to your other scenario, not to engineer it here on the fly But if you're kind of trying to reduce those wetland impacts which we started looking at and you kind of give it that serpentine and run along that bottom that back it also gives you some room maybe to shift those buildings a little bit. [2:40:30] Town Planner / Planning staff: Yeah, I just think you're gonna get in a situation where people are going to be parking on the side of the driveway road thing. And so my thinking was pedestrians if you are doing a narrow road, and then you're having parking on that. that and where are the people you're gonna have a footpath I think you're just gonna get a foot yes tout so why not do something to accommodate that was what I was thinking because I feel like this is going to have parking on it all the time because tandem parking spaces are [2:41:02] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Not going to work. You all set. I've struck my comments from the minutes. Oh, sorry, they're ingrained already. They're on video too. I think you've heard some concerns with the wetlands and the potential straight line, and maybe there's some creativity you can throw in there and get a couple of curves or something, but I definitely think wetlands, a sidewalk, and maybe some way in which we can slow down potentials, drag strip. I think it's the biggest points out of tonight, and you know, maybe you can take that alternative plan and work it away which will achieve those. We can definitely do that. Any questions for us? Not [2:41:55] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): at this point. Well, all right, we'll be moving forward. I would say work with staff, yeah, put together your site plan, and yeah, we'll take a look at it. The timing issue is with DEP right now, especially since it's an amendment to a stormwater permit. They really don't have a timeline that they're held to, so it's kind of an unknown at this point of when we'd be able to get. Yeah, we're kind [2:42:19] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): of beholden to those though as part of, you know, our approval process. Sure. Nope, and that all makes [2:42:26] Jason Haskell (DM Roma Consulting Engineers): sense, but what we'll plan to do is once we get the design completed and into DEP, a copy of that will be provided to the town, and then we can discuss the project a little bit further with staff once we have kind of a design laid out. So that sounds reasonable. All right, thank you very much, everyone. Good luck. All [2:42:54] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): right, we're through the meat of it. Aren't you lucky? And now we'll move on to, let's see, we have minor development reviews from the staff. None were received. None. Any administrative amendment reports? Not this evening. No. Any correspondence? Any hate mail? Any love mail? Are you all aware that our development review [2:43:22] Town Planner / Planning staff: planner resigned? Oh, I should have mentioned that. Helen Harman today, she, her last day was [2:43:29] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): last week, so she left us before you all could say goodbye. She's, she's moved on to GP COG, so if you have anything to do with GP COG, you might run into her, but I forgot to mention that. Thank you. The planning board comments. I knew you would have one. Well, I actually, I thought you brought up [2:43:51] Speaker H (unidentified): A good point, so oh, okay, I'll take credit with you, okay. No, the last time we had a workshop with the Downs was when they introduced their new consultants from Massachusetts. That was a couple, maybe a year and a half, two years ago, where they gave us this overview of what they saw as a town as a center and everything. And I'm just wondering if it might be a good idea to have another, other workshop just to see where they're, where they're going, what they envision going [2:44:22] Ed Hodgson: further, you know, going on at this point. I think that's a great idea when they know what they're [2:44:30] Town Planner / Planning staff: going to do with slot three and that's in space. I will say that Twill's earlier point, we did get to see their trail network back in May, so if you go back to that meeting, there is an overall, the overall trail plan that we saw as part of their sign package, and then their master plan review. I am. I think that they're probably in a pretty good spot for the next few months with this subdivision that they are requesting. And then with Market Basket opening, retail A and B, 3 I homes is supposed to be coming, breaking ground, and then they have those 2 corner buildings and Intermen. So there's a lot going on, but no, dates for that lot three yet [2:45:20] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): That wasn't a good idea you had. I guess it wasn't a good idea, but you know, it does, I mean, to William's point, you look at these plans and you're only seeing a part of it and you don't know how they interlock with each other all the time. Well, to me, what's remaining regarding [2:45:37] Speaker H (unidentified): guiding residential is the expansion of Pacer going up towards, you know, paralleling Front Runner, and then the original plans were to have a sort of a mixed neighborhood, you know [2:45:52] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): some commercial. Well, even with this amendment that they just did or came through, has some multi-use building yet included in it, so I mean, there is a lot going on there and just I'm just kind of anxious to see it ship out. [2:46:09] Speaker H (unidentified): Any idea when the Downs Road will be open? [2:46:13] Town Planner / Planning staff: I think later this year. I think it should be probably right before they do the CO for Market Basket and Intermed. So like November, Thanksgiving-y. Yeah, okay. [2:46:26] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Anybody else have any comments? [2:46:29] Jennifer Ladd: I just thought of, I think I respectfully disagree about the May meeting. I think it's it provided an opportunity to look at the trails map. I think it was that wasn't a trails map that would have say asked my board's muster for what I need to get diligence done internally for my team. And I think it showed I had a lot of questions that I raised and I've asked for feedback on from them at that main meeting, especially by interconnection. There were a lot of like little teardrop loops that are not best practice in the trail building world. And I think given there was a great article in the Press Herald about how many trail builders that exist and the professional knowledge that exists, I really trust the engineers and the work they've done. They are not professional trail builders. And this is an opportunity to do that at a really high scale and caliber with good trail design. And one of the things that I think we see in my world is folks that think they know what good trail design building trails looks like and it turns out not to be used in the way that people expect because it isn't built to best standards and practices. I think it's an opportunity for them to build and to learn in a new way and I think it's an opportunity for us to in a small way hold them accountable around what that experience will look like 100 years from now as these trails get used and used and used and the same attention we build to the roads and the thoughtfulness that I know Angela's team and review and everybody you all there do that and so I think it's just it's a unique perspective that I bring. I found that plan to be insufficient especially in terms of interconnection and thinking about trail design. I think we saw some wayfinding finding signs. I think they gave us back a new version. I still don't know what that looks and feels like to be a user of those trails and that is something that a any of the amazing trail builders that are currently working with the trails bond program the state of Maine could do and I think that's one where the town also could seize on an opportunity with the main trails program to think about what that might look like more holistically. So I just again, respectfully disagreeing, I would love to see them come back within the next four or five months because I think the teardrops give me a lot of pause in there and thinking about what that looks like and feels like especially. [2:48:58] Town Planner / Planning staff: Thank you, Will. I think that's totally fair. We are actually, and for Jen too, we are hoping to put our RFP for our trails. You got your stakeholders right there. Our trails and sidewalk master plan later in the year and you all will be signed up, which will be an exciting project and I'm exciting I think process to go through and really figure out what it is we do with Trails in Scarborough sequencing that just to sorry Jed [2:49:31] Jennifer Ladd: it's just like I think that I want to make sure then we have an opportunity really then because I think that is we I don't want us to be too late with this opportunity and it's really expensive to rebuild trails it's something it's hard to fundraise to rebuild trails it's something that is my the bane of my existence is rerouting trails yeah and [2:49:55] Town Planner / Planning staff: i think you know i've followed this development along a lot longer than may and this is something that we have constantly been asking them for in a way that like will i don't even think I think a one meeting is, you know, I wish that they would come and present that information to us on an equivalent platform with every project, just like they do the roadway networks. works that's kind of the that's how i think about it and i think about it that way because that's what they've been telling us about the whole the whole time from the very beginning was about you know what a robust walkable and interconnected development this is going to be and it's hard to follow and there's a lot of pieces i'll give them that like there's a lot going on i know but help us connect the dots every single time we see one of your projects and you heard a little bit about that tonight as we were kind of asking some questions about that like just even with vehicle connectivity show us show us how it's going to connect even if you're not quite sure show us that you're preserving the option because you know will makes a good point that it's expensive to reroute trails it's it's basically impossible to put trails in or other connections in if you don't reserve the space to do that and so even if they don't build it right now which I think they should because in a lot of ways you know it's it makes sense based on what they're talking about but preserving right-of-ways and points of access and easements as they are laying out right-of-way lines it's it's just it feels really critical to me to get it right and it's a process that I still kind of struggle with because I know they're following the steps and the steps are you draw the lines first and then you figure out what you're going to do inside of them later and you heard them even say tonight like we kind of tried to guess where it was going to be and we guessed a little bit wrong like okay that happens that's why we have the amendment process but these are the kinds of things we should be thinking about I feel like every time like utilities roadways trails connectivity how are you servicing all these sites and how are they connected and the connectivity that's not just a downs thing that's like something we're prioritizing townwide to Autumn and Angela's point about the trails master plan so yeah I hope that they have a huge seat at that table because I think there's just such huge opportunity here like I think about the trails network in actually in almost all of our neighboring communities Cape Elizabeth you know you can You could walk on a trail almost one side of town to the other, I think, and it's amazing. They're not along roadways, they don't skirt parking lots, they are fully off-road trails and it's a wonderful network and there's a lot of other communities I think that we can look at around us to point to that as good examples. I look forward to hearing more about this too. Two, Will, thanks for bringing up the point. [2:53:05] Jennifer Ladd: Thanks, Jen. I'll just say the third, as the town thinks about this is, there an opportunity for a third-party review of trail networks as designed, thinking about what's going on in North Scarborough, everything, I mean, just if some of the plans are to come to fruition, there's an opportunity, there's a lot of opportunity, but there is real expertise to the same degree or a similar degree as the engineering community does for our third tire reviews. And so let's use that, let's use the professionals because I think we can hold ourselves accountable to the type of trail system that I think we're all collectively looking for here in Scarborough. [2:53:45] Chair (presiding officer, filling in for James): Fair enough. Anybody else have any comments other than that? Hear,. I'm hearing somebody say they wish to adjourn. Yes. All right, it's adjourned.