Mount Desert Assessment Review Board holds first meeting since 2011

[0:00] Speaker A (unidentified): Do you want to write right hand? And repeat after me, I. Okay, do you swear I will support the Constitution of the United States and this state and as long as I should continue a citizen there up so long as I should continue with this. I do swear that I will faithfully discharge to the best of my abilities the duties incumbent on me as a member of the Town of Mount Desert Board of Assessment for the remainder of a three-year term according to the Constitution and the law of the state so help me God okay and then you sign and date [1:11] Speaker B (unidentified): I know rubble do you see the back of this the back of that there's always I don't have a back to it yours here gave it to you no I got at mine I [1:40] Speaker A (unidentified): don't know that's it you're on file though so I wouldn't worry about it yeah it must [1:48] Speaker B (unidentified): be there because I just gave it to you no I've got this that's your oath yeah that's the conflict of interest I didn't yeah I'm like I know that I've got [1:59] Speaker A (unidentified): yours on file so i already had one and okay oh you know why because i gave yours to keating so we're good unless you want to take notes okay now where are we at all right i'm going to call this meeting to order it's what 6 0 2 p.m and really first item on the agenda is the introduction to the board so if you guys want to go around the room and introduce yourself to your fellow board members keating pepper [2:47] Gail Mosher: resided in soundsville since 1959 and that's it i'm gail mosher residing in maine since 1952 [2:57] Speaker D (unidentified): but not so long in stonesville every year and i serve on less committees here i know [3:04] Alan Kimberly: i'm alan kimberly residing in maine since 1998. i've been in shomesville for almost 10 years now [3:10] Jerry Miller: moved from bahaba nice welcome to something we don't hold it against you i'm jerry miller so i'm so forever oh yeah i've been there since 92 in other places before that [3:24] Kevin Walls: well kevin walls i've been living on the island since 1966. okay [3:33] Speaker A (unidentified): So the next item is well, should we introduce Kyle introduce Kyle? I am Kyle Avila. I am your tax assessor and have been in this office since 2007. [3:45] Jerry Miller: This is the 1st meeting of the board of assessment review since 2011. [3:53] Speaker A (unidentified): Are we recording this? Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. So the next item is the election of officers. We're going to need a chair, a vice chair, and a secretary. So let's vote for chairs. Are there any nominations? [4:11] Alan Kimberly: I would nominate myself for chair or vice chair. I don't care. Either one. [4:17] Speaker A (unidentified): You're going to second Alan? He was good with a hammer. Okay. Are there any other nominations? Okay, hearing none, all those in favor of Alan for chair raise your hand. Thank you, Alan. Hey, five to zero. Hey, vice chair. Any nominations for vice chair? You want to be vice chair? [4:42] Kevin Walls: No, I'm already a chair of the board. I don't need to be a jury. Oh, that, I'm sure you want to do it. No. [4:49] Speaker D (unidentified): I've already, I don't know. Okay, this is my fifth. I'll do, I'll do vice chair. [4:53] Jerry Miller: Someone wants, I better be vice chair because I can't be treasurer. Okay, all right, there is no choice. You know when you die, right now I'm not taking notes. I can't write to save my [5:04] Gail Mosher: life. I can't, I don't even have anything to complain about, so you'll be vice chair. Sure. [5:08] Speaker A (unidentified): Okay, so any other nominations besides Jerry for a vice chair? Hearing none, all those in favor for Jerry is vice chair. Yay. You're not voting. Okay, and secretary, and as far as I know, this person, we're gonna have Heidi taking minutes, but it's the recording of the decision, and so how do we do that? Who writes the decision up? [5:46] Jerry Miller: We'll go over that in the procedure. There's a fair number of ways to approach the findings [5:53] Speaker D (unidentified): of fact i nominate dale marshall important don't know i 'm serious like i have so many committees [5:59] Speaker A (unidentified): I'm on right now. You're denying my, I can't, I can't write it. Oh, it's okay, we'll find a way to get it, that's on tape to help recorded, and then but it's just your name as secretary. I'm just Okay, I'm an 18 February. Okay. In the seconds. Okay. And. You know what, I didn't record with 1st and 2nd in all these, but anyways, yes, you're right. It's on tape. So all those in favor. [6:29] Gail Mosher: Thank you for not opposing. All right. [6:35] Speaker A (unidentified): Okay, next I have the review of the ordinance or the procedures, I guess. [6:39] Jerry Miller: This is the document I just handed you all, it's eight pages. It's a really good cookbook of how to hold the hearings. The first part of it is basically the step-by-step in the process of the hearing, and then further they're on there are the standards that need to be met by the appellant. Talent, but why don't we just go through that real quick? This has been adopted by the town, so it's, it's considered a controlling document. So the filing requirements, you just need that the appellant needs to submit written appeal to you. You are required to hear the case within 60 days of when we received it. We received her application on September 21. We have until November for Thanksgiving to hear the case. And then once you've made a final decision, then 10 days after that, you need to file a written ruling. [7:55] Alan Kimberly: I've got one question. Are you going to be here on our meetings, just like Kim is on the planning board? [8:06] Jerry Miller: Yes and no. I will be here, but I'm really defendant. So, I need to keep some level of impartiality from influencing you or telling you what to [8:17] Alan Kimberly: do as a board. And when we have to post all these things in a newspaper, is that clear? [8:25] Jerry Miller: Claire does that? Yeah. Okay. We've taken care of notifications, public meetings. [8:32] Alan Kimberly: Yes. That's my... Published notices. That was my main concern. Yeah. Yeah. Who oversees that? [8:37] Speaker D (unidentified): Well, as the chair, a further question you might have is, who's going to take responsibility for making sure that the deadlines are met? You know, we've got 60 days and so on and so forth. Who's going to keep that count? Staff will. [8:54] Kevin Walls: Yeah, the staff's usually in the office when somebody brings in something. [8:59] Jerry Miller: We've got all the records. We'll set calendar dates. We'll reserve rooms. [9:04] Kevin Walls: James Heiting. Okay, thank you. In my experience, it's been that the chair usually well, a bunch of dates, and then we send out like the little poll and I see who can make it. [9:22] Jerry Miller: So you have the discretion to deem inadmissible written materials or exhibits if they're not timely filed that's pretty much the only reason we did we disagree with their stuff they're filing right no that's only if they if they were to submit something late okay and you can say we're not going to accept that because it was less than 14 days before the hearing okay so you should have all the materials that you're going to be reviewing two weeks before you hold the year okay but we're not rejecting materials other than an untimely date okay most of the time that occurs [10:03] Kevin Walls: during the meeting i just want to check then something yeah no i can't do that yeah [10:09] Jerry Miller: you can require either party to submit a pre-hearing post hearing memoranda or briefs as you are probably going to figure out this is a very legal proceeding the case that you will hear year is fairly uncomplicated. But with real estate assessments, it can get fairly complicated. And so I value properties, they'll typically be lawyers present. And so that's what that second filing requirement is, more dealing with more complicated cases where there may be legal filings that you want ahead of the hearing. And you have the right to request those of either party. [10:51] Gail Mosher: And you'll provide us with the comps and that sort of stuff. [10:54] Jerry Miller: I will present you with materials, yes. Okay, and then the procedure, once we schedule the meeting, the chair will call them into order and supervise the meeting. So that's all on you, Alan. It will be a public proceeding. We will record each meeting. Three members constitutes a quorum. We have no alternate members currently, but if anybody knows somebody that might want to sit in on these as an ultimate member, please bring, send them our way. As a public hearing, are they available on Zoom? Yep, okay, yep, and then there's some conditions for alternate members attending or participating. Chair asked for a roll fall during the meeting. Chair requests the board to complete business and approve any old minutes. So this is, these are the step-by-step procedures you'll do in the meeting, right, introduce ourselves and then swear in the parties and then so number seven review the standards procedures and summarize the legal standards for which the board operates, which is further on in this document, and be you and you've had the applicant is represented by legal counsel. The board may also seek legal representation. So then the chair explains the order of presentation. The assessor goes first, explains the assessment, evaluations, methods used, any abatements granted, sort of the background history of the case. And then you have an opportunity to ask any questions of the assessor about what materials were presented. Board may request a formal inspection of the property. Gotta be careful about ex parte communication as this is a legal proceeding, no talking about it on the sidewalk up in the Soulsville or going to the house to the property on your, on your own and scope it out. It needs to be such a site visit everybody who's interested needs to go at the same, at the same time and those are publicly published. That's right, you know that's right, back in the paper like they always are. Okay, yep, and then everybody who's interested goes and does the inspection. So after at the meeting following the inspection, the board shall summarize the inspection. So that's very similar to what the planning board does, right, almost like this is, yep. Then after that happens, then it's the applicant's turn. The appellant can present their case, let me testify, bring any witnesses or documents. The assessor may question any person testifying, including the applicant. Following their testimony, the board members may also ask, and if I Can d following the close of the applicant's case, the board makes preliminary determination as to whether the applicant met the burden showing the assessment to be manifestly wrong. So that's going to be a term you're going to hear a lot, manifestly wrong is the first hurdle that the applicant has to get over, which we'll go into what that actually means. For wrong, board finds the applicant has not met this burden, the appeal must be denied. So that's right out of the shoot, if they don't meet that burden proving that it's manifestly wrong, it's denied. If the board finds the applicant has met the burden, the assessor may present evidence concerning market value, the property and the proper assessment. So I get a, I almost get two shots at it. I go first, the applicant presents their case, then I go again. That's item E, presents the assessor's case, and that's where we present the witnesses, their documents, and then I could you another round of questions. On request the may allow presentation of rebuttal evidence by the applicant. Board may allow parties make closing statements. If legal issues have been raised, the board may require the parties to file post hearing briefs on those issues specified the board. So you can ask for a legal opinion after the assessor and the applicant have finished presentations. Chair to close the hearing, the board will commence deliberations. Does that mean it's no longer a public hearing at that point? It's all public hearing. Okay, I mean, I mean it's all public, but there's really no public participation, unless they're called as a witness. They can just sit and observe. [16:08] Gail Mosher: Do you describe manifestly value or whatever? I will. [16:12] Jerry Miller: Okay, that's good. Well, that's coming up the board standards. [16:15] Speaker D (unidentified): Can I ask a question about the documents submitted before the hearing versus documents that are presented at the hearing? Should we anticipate that the applicant will present us with a full set of documents before the hearing just in support of the case? So, if there's all kinds of new stuff that gets presented at the hearing, is that admissible? [16:39] Jerry Miller: Yes, so there are assessment review hearings are partly de novo. So, applicants are allowed to bring new evidence during the hearing. We'll get into that in the standards. [16:57] Kevin Walls: It's just documentation that they don't bring in, right? They can present evidence, but because if we are presented with documents, we should be allowed the time to act. [17:08] Jerry Miller: They're going to give you everything up front ahead of the hearing so that you're able to look it over rather than show up and present it. But the way this reads, I could, or the applicant could, so it's allowed under law to be able to present at the meeting, but although we're not, we're allowed to deem them inadmissible. That's right, if we want, I suppose that would be the case where if in the questioning you said, well, what about this or that, and I'm like, oh yeah, well, there's this standard, let me get the copy of law, and then present copies of law, something like that, so that would be then admitted during the hearing. I think that's that's kind of what that's after, so the deliberations get comments. The secretary or his or her designee, they'll prepare a list proposed findings. So this is the important part of these hearings, is to come up with findings of fact, and that you all will vote on each of those findings of fact, and there's a form, and that will be the basis for your letter to the applicant or to me as far as it's a fact, because then the next level of appeal is superior court, and Jerry has a good question, they're going to look at the findings of fact to see if you follow the law. Is there a form, is Jerry, that's a good question, like there's a, like the planning board has a findings. The Court may vote to defer making a decision on the appeal, either on its own or with the assistance from attorneys, and then draft written findings of fact in a decision for the- oh, I skipped one. Okay, so A is deliberations, come up with your findings of fact, and vote to render its decision by one of these means. By motion and vote, the board will vote with that each of the proposed findings of fact, or the board may vote to defer making a decision on the appeal and either on its own or with assistance from an attorney draft written findings of fact for the board to vote further consideration at a later date, or the board may require the parties to each submit proposed. It was fine as a fact, and a decision for the board's further consideration and vote at a later date. So there's 3 options to the coming out of the finance effect doing yourselves. You could direct staff to draft some, or you could direct both parties, the appellant and the assessor to draft, and then come back to you with those. [19:58] Speaker D (unidentified): And vote on those in a further meeting. Right. Well, staff, I think it's we either, we either do it ourselves, we haven't, we ask for a council to do it, or we ask the parties to submit proposals. Is it, where's the, where's the staff? You're right, you're right. Okay, yeah, which makes sense. Yep. [20:20] Speaker A (unidentified): Okay, yeah, you're a part of that. [20:26] Jerry Miller: Chair will then entertain any other business. They will request a motion to adjourn. Secretary is responsible for archiving and maintaining all materials submitted. I mean that's largely clerk's office. If you will, it'll be your name on it as the secretary. A board's written decision must be sent within 10 days of the date of the board's final vote and decisions. The decision must also include a statement advising the parties on their appeal rights in accordance with state law. So you just let them the either party know you can appeal this to Superior Court. That's the next level. And do we send this registered mail to them? I'm not sure if it's required registered or not. Okay, but they'd be definitely doing that. [21:19] Speaker A (unidentified): And probably we'll send it registered mail. Yeah, just cut CYA, you know, they'll probably be digital. [21:29] Jerry Miller: Yeah, all right, so then we're going to the board standards. All right, so with the exception of setting up dates, scheduling matters, and other non-substantive matters, board members must ensure all business takes place only during meetings. Three or more members meeting to discuss official business constitutes a meeting, including discussions by three or more members over email. Board members must avoid ex parte communications with applicants or the assessor on substantive matters related to the proceedings, must avoid deliberating with other board members on issues related to the appeal outside scheduled meetings, except in cases by directive of the court order and other matters that are proper subject to the executive sessions. All proceedings are to [22:22] Kevin Walls: take place at scheduled meetings of the movie. Also we're saying probably that we don't entertain long [22:29] Speaker D (unidentified): and forth discussions with members of the public about this, that if they want to be heard, they can come to a meeting. Exactly. The street is not the place to be engaging with. [22:39] Jerry Miller: Yeah. And then item three is just about conflicts of interest. And there's definition about what constitutes a conflict of interest. Mostly in this definition, it's pecuniary interest, but it can be perceived conflict. Conflict and so if you're not sure if you have a conflict, you can present what you think might be to the board and the board can decide whether it is or not. And if it's, they decide not [23:12] Speaker D (unidentified): then you're allowed to participate. It is in that list, but the things that Alan should be running through at the outset of the meeting, like we do with the planning board, is to ask people about [23:22] Speaker B (unidentified): yes, at the beginning, yes [23:26] Jerry Miller: number four, evidence and testimony shall be admitted unless it's irrelevant, unreliable, unduly repetitious. Evidence is deemed reliable if it is the kind of evidence on which persons customarily rely on the conduct of serious affairs. Opinion evidence as to valuation issues can either be in the form of the owner's opinion for the opinion of another qualified person. Appraisal evidence offered must be in conformance with standards of professional appraisal practice. That's got to be a use path unless the board receives permission in writing from the applicant. It shall hold hearings and decide all appeals within 60 days of the date of filing of the applicant. Matters not acted on by the board within such period shall be deemed denied. Work must base its decision and its findings of fact on evidence in the record. Board shall issue written notice of decision and findings of fact within 10 days following the date it makes final action on the appeal. Decisions of the board may be appealed under rule EDB or civil procedure within 30 days of the date of the decision to the Hancock Superior Court. Board property involves non-residential property value exceeding a million goes to the state board or is authorized to rely on town staff to assist in clerical methods relating to the board's activities, including scheduling meetings, posting advertising notices regarding board proceedings, recording meetings, and otherwise assisting with the drafting and distribution the board's findings of fact and deliberations. There you go. What [25:11] Speaker D (unidentified): What constitutes sufficient proof that appraisal evidence is offered in conformance with the standards of professional appraisal practice? [25:17] Jerry Miller: There'll be a disclaimer at the front of the appraisal that it meets the USPAP standards. Thank you. And that it would have to be somebody that was. That agrees to be used as a real estate appraiser. Yeah. Right. So then the appendix is the real meat of this document. It's the standards of review and the burden of proof. Property tax appeal hearings. So the first item deals with what's called just value. That's what the constitution calls it, just value. Courts have decided that it equates to market value. Market value is generally defined as a price a willing buyer would reasonably pay to a willing seller in an open market transaction free from unusual conditions or circumstances. So number two is really the one I want to hone in on. The assessors have considerable discretion and leeway in the choice of methods or combination of methods they choose to rely on to arrive at an estimate of a property's just value. The valuation process, however, assessors must at least consider the appropriate professionally accepted assessment and appraisal methodologies to arrive at the estimates of property fair market value. Three general methods are cost approach, comparative sales, or market approach, and the income approach. Income approach is typically used for commercial properties, not really relevant for residential properties. What we use in our town is a combination of cost and comparative sales. All right, so number three. Oh, it's number three that's really the meat of it. Assessments, assessing methodologies, and the assessor's judgment are presumed valid. So right out of the box we have to assume I'm right. It's up to the advocate to prove they have to, not just that I'm wrong, that I'm manifestly wrong, man is really wrong, right? Okay, to overcome become these presumptions, taxpayer must prove the assessment manifestly wrong. Prove manifest error, the taxpayer has the burden of proof to demonstrate one or more of the following. The judgment of the assessor, so irrational and so unreasonable in light of the circumstance that the property was substantially overvalued and injustice resulted, or that there was unjust discrimination, or that the assessment was fraudulent, dishonest, and legal. And those are the only three things that apply in manifest air, right? Okay, and there was substantially, it's probably significant, there first of these is typically here where there's a dispute between the taxpayer and the assessor. They have different opinions of what the fair market value is of a property. The second one where there's unjust discrimination concerns disputes use of the assessment method and how the assessor applied the method, concerns the second constitutional standard that requires equal apportionment of tax burden, meaning similar properties should have similar assessments. And then the third prong is improprietary, improprieties in the assessing process. Illegality in this concept means that there is a legal deficit in the authority of the assessor or in the assessing and taxation process, beginning illegal to meet the legal threshold of proof required to prove manifest wrong. Where a taxpayer is planning overvaluation, the taxpayer must provide evidence and prove that the board accepts as sufficient and predator, which impeaches the validity of the assessment, and provide evidence and proof that the board accepts as sufficiently credible of the disputed property's fair market value. So there's the two things they really got to come forward with, shows the valuation is way off, and here's why, with affirmable evidence [29:37] Speaker D (unidentified): and I assume the burden of proof they have to meet is a preponderance of the evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt or anything. I mean, there's all kinds of different standards, indisputable is one [29:49] Gail Mosher: of the terms in the law. Okay, and do we mail in that document or they look it up online or [29:55] Kevin Walls: the document you're reading? Yes, they do have the copy of this. Okay, do they? It's on the website. I mean, you guys are only in three, but I mean, do they generally come in with like an appraisal of that property to base it, base something off it, or is it more of a, it's usually somebody coming in [30:13] Jerry Miller: and saying I think it's worth this. Okay, with no evidence, because if somebody brought me an appraisal, I'm typically going to adjust it, because that's sufficient evidence that impeachment. Yes, that makes sense. We get to this point, it usually means they haven't provided any sufficient. Let me [30:32] Speaker D (unidentified): just go back and ask one question about the,, the,, the business about businesses, the standard of life of business, the income value. When a property is being used for rental, is that, do we, for this purpose, consider it a business or is it simply residential? [30:55] Jerry Miller: Potential, I wouldn't consider it commercial unless it was a hundred percent rented by a rental company, and it's a business, and that's what the business does is rent out properties. If it's an LLC of a of a consideration, considering the rental market, but I don't typically use like 20 of my [31:24] Speaker D (unidentified): My income is based upon property rental, but I'm not- It's not an income branch. [31:29] Jerry Miller: It's gotta be 100% of your income for that business, not just somebody renting out an accessory dwelling. That's not gonna work. Okay, thank you. Only if the taxpayer satisfies both of these burdens is the board authorized to engage in an independent determination of fair market value purpose of granting an abatement. So then the discrimination claim is whenever it can be established indisputably by competent and sufficient evidence that a given assessment on an agreed taxpayers property has been laid upon a distinctly higher valuation than the assessments under the property of taxpayers in general, and that is discrimination was intentional, courts will intervene to reduce tax to the extent necessary to place the complaining taxpayer on a plane of equality with others in his clothes. So there's a common terminology in the assessing world is, equity trumps value. You may be over-assessed, but if you're over-assessed the same as everybody else in town, it's legal. So that's after their discrimination, and it may be that a particular property is overvalued compared to other similar type properties, that were the case i would have just attended because equity is the name of the game. Even so, sporadic spot under assessments or other properties or errors of judgment on the part of the assessor are not adequate to support a finding of unjust just discrimination or to grant an abatement. The results of a review of the assessment must show the assessor used systematic or intentional methods to create disparity, and that the methodology or assumptions relied on by the assessor led to disparity were unfounded or arbitrary. [33:30] Speaker D (unidentified): We have to show you have an intent to do it. [33:35] Jerry Miller: Where, and I think that's supposed to be Anne, where an assessment represents a fair and just determination of value, a taxpayer is not entitled to an abatement even if they demonstrate potential flaw in the assessor's methodology. The property is assessed and it's true or just value and the valuation is consistent with similar situated properties. Taxpayer has not incurred harm from that from the assessment that is properly remedied by abatement. So I was just say it's similar to other similar type properties that are legal. Total value for a parcel is the controlling value for tax assessment purposes. As a result, demonstration that a component of the property's value has been over assessed is insufficient legal grounds to prove overvaluation. You can't just go after a land value, you can't just go after a billing value, you've got to say the total value is overvalued and here's why. The property owner must prove overvaluation of the total value received in abatement. And then the last one, the main law recognizes mass valuation is not an exact science. That tax assessments and valuations may be valid though not entirely precise. Statute assessors are therefore afforded a margin of error in their valuations. Thus assessments are valid if they are accurate within reasonable limits of practicality. The margin of error allowed assessors is 10 within the town's assessment ratio. So every year we look at properties that sold, compare them to these values and come up with an average ratio of assessed sale price. That's the town's assessment ratio and so the current year we're at 86 of market value. So I have plus or minus 10 of that 86. So if I'm within 76 to 96 percent sale price it's that okay, that's the 10 with the room like to give us assessors annually report. Yeah, that's just more about the assessment ratio. Okay, so that's the gist of it. Do you have any other questions about, yeah, what we need to do procedurally and I think Gail and all the burdens [36:01] Kevin Walls: on them to prove it. That's right, that's right and you can't just say and basically what it should be in all the documentation is what is valued at and then it's up to them to come [36:17] Jerry Miller: In the proof, whatever verifiable affirmative evidence as to just value, we don't know if it's overvalued until we know what it's worth. What's the market value of the property, right? And then you can say, well, that's the market value according to this person. Your assessment is this, it's more than that. 10 wiggle room, what's the deal? That's really the second hurdle they have to get over. So the one, the first one is the manifestly wrong. If they can prove it's manifestly wrong, then they provide their evidence of value and that's the basis for your determination. Let me see if I [36:53] Speaker D (unidentified): understand this properly. If assessed value that we're presented with is a hundred thousand dollars and you have you and your attack where we've got this 86 percent. So it's 10% of $86,000, one way or the other, versus 10% off from $100,000. Okay. [37:15] Kevin Walls: 76 to 96,000. Okay. So that's what we have to keep in mind. We have to know what that number is. [37:25] Speaker D (unidentified): Okay. And who would present that number? [37:28] Kevin Walls: Number, yeah, the appellant needs to provide. Yes, they're the ones that have, they have to [37:34] Jerry Miller: has to just value move everything. Yep, and it's not enough to just pick apart a methodology. It's not enough to pick apart a single component of evaluation. They have to prove the whole value [37:47] Alan Kimberly: it's manifestly wrong. I think the cards are stacked in your favor. Absolutely, that's right, [37:54] Jerry Miller: because there are a hundred years of tax law. You're not holding any cards here, a hundred ways to do that, because it's an appeal. I don't know if you notice that there's a lot of like legal citations in this, because everybody thinks they can challenge it and it's been the court a million times. So there's huge case law that backs up the assessor. I mean, we would expect [38:15] Speaker D (unidentified): you to explain the methodology and as long as that's in conformance with what your, the standards. So [38:24] Jerry Miller: I guess what's left is for you to pick a date for your hearing. It has to be before November. What, [38:32] Speaker A (unidentified): or November 20th? Yep, this is the week before Thanksgiving, correct. Now my question is, if they have the public hearing on November 20th and they don't come to a decision that day, or they decide, if they decide they need to continue the hearing to another date, does that void the 60 day thing? [38:59] Jerry Miller: Do you, do you get extra? So there's, I'm here, 2 things. One is I recommend you don't wait till November twentieth, Friday. Anyway, you have to, thanks for 2 is if you get to that point, and you haven't made a decision. You can ask both the assessor and the applicant for an extension, and we are allowed to give you an extension. If you don't come to a decision by the 60 days and you don't get an extension for appeal, the appeal is deemed denied. Do they then have to, can they reappeal close to superior court? Yeah, that's the next step, that's the next step. Okay, because the burden's on them. I agree that waiting until November 20th is not a good idea. Kurt, I would recommend is we have the appeal, and I have my memo and supporting materials for you tonight. We would submit those to you, give you 2 weeks, and then meet if you can meet in 2 weeks, or the next opportunity for you to me. [39:59] Speaker A (unidentified): me and then have the hearing and definitely I'm showing two weeks is October 20th we have a [40:07] Speaker D (unidentified): land use advisory committee meeting here that night that [40:12] Alan Kimberly: was going to be my question is where [40:16] Speaker A (unidentified): can we fit in with the town calendar looking at the calendar right now Wednesday the 21st and Thursday the 22nd are open and so is Friday but nobody wants to meet on a Friday let's do either [40:30] Speaker D (unidentified): either one of those days yeah I haven't I think I have a school policy committee meeting on the 22nd but at the 21st appears to be open because that's in between planning board meetings which [40:42] Kevin Walls: are going to be interesting this month yeah see that was amazing the 21st Wednesdays are good for [40:49] Jerry Miller: Tuesdays and Wednesdays are better for me well let's do it October 21st since anything's fine it's fine for me yeah fire extinguisher training but I think we'll be done before six [41:01] Kevin Walls: it's usually Friday Saturday is NCAA stuff yeah I'm I'm actually out of town [41:09] Jerry Miller: I thought that was until Thursday oh my child is no you're at more limit [41:18] Speaker A (unidentified): that way but it means every night that week in my house I'll check with Heidi and see if she but she's going to be the one taking the minute yep it seems like that's all you're doing and what about a site visit do you want to do a site visit that day prior to the public here [41:47] Alan Kimberly: where is this thing it's back next to Beach Hill Farm you haven't heard the case yet well it says [41:54] Jerry Miller: right there Glenn didn't you I've walked in that area yeah almost that isn't necessary [42:00] Gail Mosher: To do a sites or anything, what's up to you guys. I have to say I've been in the house. Well, I was trying to buy a piece of land from him and he said go in the house and give me a value. I never gave him a value, but I've been in the house on the water. No, well, I that was on the market too, but no, this is the current house that's sitting there. And so I offered him money for the property before he put the house on it, and then he asked me to look at the house. I never valued it, but he asked for it so. Just to let you know, I've been in the house and had some communication John Carter, who I assume is probably deceased at this point. [42:44] Jerry Miller: So is there? Is it? Is there a standard behavior to have site surveys or not? I mean, I know I know you haven't met very often. My recommendation would be reviewed the materials first, and then decide if you need a site visit. [42:59] Alan Kimberly: Okay, let's do that if we do need a site visit that would have to be put in notice. [43:06] Speaker A (unidentified): Public notice, okay, yes, so this is where I'm I'm getting at. If we're doing this on the 21st, I have to post, is it 10 days I have to post or we have before the public hearing? I couldn't find anything that said when I had to post the notice. I'm not 100 sure we'll have to, I didn't find anything when I went before, but it's the normal notice for other boards public hearings. I like I think it's the town uses 10 days statutorily, I think you can do seven days, I'm going to make a request. [43:42] Speaker D (unidentified): That we move this meeting to the 27th because I'm looking, I have a child who lives overseas who's going to be with us for 10 days and so far hush and so far I have four of those nights and I'm going to be at public meetings of one sort or another if I do this so. [43:58] Speaker A (unidentified): So, the 27th would be brilliant for me. 7th is open on the week, is that Tuesday, fine by me. [44:07] Alan Kimberly: All right, that sounds good. I appreciate it. It'd be nice if she would come and join our meeting. [44:12] Speaker D (unidentified): Lauren will be back in Norway just then. [44:16] Speaker A (unidentified): And did you want to do it at 6 0T M and that gives us time to do the notices and find out. Yeah. It's good for me. [44:26] Speaker D (unidentified): At what point should we let the chair know that we want a site visit in order to make sure we have enough time for the 27th? When are we going to get the materials tonight? [44:38] Jerry Miller: So within a week we can let you know, within a couple of days, yes, and then if you think it's necessary we can schedule that, so by the 13th next. [44:49] Speaker A (unidentified): Next, well, okay, so if we're doing a site visit and I have to post this in the newspaper, I'm going to need to know. I don't know, the papers changed their deadlines. Kim would be like Monday, I think, by noon, and it's convenient if we Monday. [45:09] Speaker D (unidentified): David closed day of, yes, can we do it right before five? Yeah, you, I mean, how long does the [45:17] Kevin Walls: site does it take? I mean, only about 10, 15 minutes. Yeah, you're not there debating things, you're just [45:22] Speaker A (unidentified): looking. Okay, but at five o'clock this time of year, is it dark? Yes, so do you want to do it earlier? It's [45:30] Speaker D (unidentified): not dark, it's getting there, but it's not dark. I mean, it was light when we came down here for six o'clock meeting. When's your time change, three weeks from now, March on November one? [45:39] Speaker A (unidentified): Depending if they ever vote, just maybe they're not doing it for this time change, it would be [45:45] Kevin Walls: spring or something. Well, I mean, stat now it's kind of had to do anything without being backed [45:52] Speaker A (unidentified): out. Well, okay, I'm just so pointing out that you, if you want to do it earlier, like a three instead, or if you want to do it at five, that's fine, so we should let you know by the end of [46:03] Jerry Miller: this week, you should. Why don't we read the materials and then we can decide and then we can pick a time? Yes, okay, I would just make a suggestion. Well, they're not talking about substance, we're just contacting, all we're doing is saying we think that. Also, if anybody shoots a note to Alan says we need to have a site visit or I want to have a site visit, yeah, he compiles it and says okay, we have three more members want a site visit. [46:32] Alan Kimberly: It make it so correct. I think it'd be fine if we just had a site visit, most of us are pretty close [46:37] Speaker B (unidentified): to this one and it is our first one. Okay, so do you want to just say 5 p.m. site visit? My compadres [46:45] Speaker D (unidentified): can get back to me, it's fine with me. Let's do it, let's, let's do that as a default, and if we, if we read the documents and think it's, we don't need it, then sure, site visit 5 p.m. Awesome, [47:01] Kevin Walls: awesome, then it's fresh on my own. You'll send out a note about these things, thank you, a five o'clock [47:09] Jerry Miller: site visit on the 27th, no, as soon because we're all writing it down on these people, yes, [47:15] Speaker A (unidentified): even though I haven't been doing anything for planning board or anything for more than 10 years, I'm going to try to dig back through what I used to do and I'm going to submit this to the paper. I'm going to post it on the website. I'm going to send it out to all of you guys, and to the person doing this. [47:39] Speaker D (unidentified): Ask Kim how she does it. She does it for Luso, she does it for the playing board. [47:42] Kevin Walls: Yeah, and then we usually get a copy of it, and then we make note of the copy of notice that's in the paper. We have it in our file for the whole. That's how we usually do it. Yeah. Yeah. Enter it into the record. Yeah. And it was posted and we notified butters on this one. No, it's on the button thing. Okay. Yeah. I don't think because this is just a development. Notify all taxpayers. [48:11] Gail Mosher: That's what the public notice. Do you accept a motion to adjourn? [48:16] Kevin Walls: are we ready are we ready well we don't have any other business right if that's [48:26] Alan Kimberly: the case i'll accept you i'll second your motion thank you all those in favor aye here [48:33] Speaker D (unidentified): we go oh you have to stop [48:35] Kevin Walls: that would you ever 648 supporting speeding cameras when someone's okay hey when we could It must be the valley. [48:43] Gail Mosher: Not in the north. That's the assessment. There are some cars that goes to. [48:48] Kevin Walls: I know. And I know it's that's. [48:51] Jerry Miller: All right. When they drop the copies. [48:53] Gail Mosher: One truck comes down Oak Hill Road. [48:56] Speaker A (unidentified): Oh, here is held by Thomas House. [48:58] Kevin Walls: And he gets the top of the hill and he takes off. [49:01] Gail Mosher: And then I get something straight away. Yeah, daughter and son. [49:04] Speaker A (unidentified): One of these already subdivision. [49:06] Gail Mosher: Well, back the guys that don't look like I don't have. [49:09] Kevin Walls: having this is right. [49:13] Gail Mosher: I understand. Yeah, big brother [49:15] Kevin Walls: work on you. But yeah, I must say though, that the your name [49:21] Gail Mosher: of the dentist is Oh, good in the road. Yeah. [49:26] Kevin Walls: Thank you.