Newcastle residents push changes to downtown intersection plans

[0:27] Kevin Sutherland: All right, I'd like to get this kicked off now that we have representation here from EOT. I know most of our residents here, so my name is Kevin Sutherland, I'm the cap manager. Appreciate some residents showing up today, and I hope to do this again, try to encourage more people to come. Ice, it seems that food is the biggest motivator, I'll make sure I get some of the residents. But Corey and Clark, sorry, so Clark and Mike are both DOT employees. They're aware of this project. They're aware of, I am the regional planner. I was also the administrator of the BPI, making sure that Newcastle got the money that the OT said it was going to provide following the region study. So my area is kind of tying in a lot of different projects to make sure everybody's voice is heard, and particularly to try and clear up some of the local concerns surrounding the concept plans that Wright Pierce put together. Okay, and so I'll, and I'll step back that and do you want to mention what you do? [1:46] Clark Soloway: Thank you, Clark. I'm Clark Soloway. I'm planning engineer with DOT. So I work in the same group as Mike. And I'm here, I guess, as like the technical expertise, I guess. So like, you know, whatever you guys want to do with these plans, I know they're not perfect. And we're trying to see what we can do a little bit different to make everybody happy. [2:14] Kevin Sutherland: So but you'll tell us if we propose something that's just crazy. Yeah, exactly, yeah, okay, yeah. And so these designs were done by through the village partnership initiative, we did, oh my gosh, almost three years ago, started that process with DOT. That program, what it does is it allows us to go out to bid to pay for an engineering firm to do sort of like the free pre-engineering designs, and we did a lot of public engagement at that time, and this is ultimately the designs you have on those two tables. Are ultimately what was proposed by Wright Pierce and more or less supported by the select board. Obviously we still heard a few comments towards the end there that we some additional modifications should be considered. Even the select board wasn't totally in love with one or the other of the two suggestions for the intersection at Academy Hill, Mills and Red Street. So there's room for improvement, and that's part of the reason why we've invited DOT now. We want to continue to engage DOT as they start to think about the design for this. We still don't have all the funding lined up, we have our support from the community for our small share of this. We have hopefully some CDS money coming to us whenever the federal government gets around to approving the budget. And then DOT will find a way to help us fill in the gap. So that is really where we're at right now. We just want to get ahead of some of the design ideas and thinking about what our community ultimately wants to see here. We'll leave it at that. Mike, do you want to add anything in this? I think you covered it really well. I think that something that we are hoping to get out of this is to make sure that the local, that Newcastle citizens are heard and have an opportunity to provide input to adjusting the plans as they were drawn up and also to kind of make sure that the ball is already rolling if and when we are able to secure enough funding to go to implementation. Our first goal is CDS. The town was able to secure approval for the local cost share, but again, like Kevin said, we'll have to wait to see what with what happens on the federal side in providing those dollars. [4:47] Speaker C (unidentified): Remind me, CDS is the- Oh, it's the- Congressional discretionary- Yeah,, yeah. Congressional discretionary. Near Merck. Yeah,, yeah. I forgot the acronym, sorry. [4:59] Speaker D (unidentified): Kelly, quick question, just a baseline. Way back when, I know there was a discussion around the turnaround up there, Lincoln Home. I assume that's off the table since there's some- A roundabout? Yeah. [5:11] Kevin Sutherland: Oh yeah, we're not going to, I mean the roundabout was not a recommendation that came out of the Red Pierce design partially because of cost and yeah, I mean you'd have, you'd have a lot of earth [5:21] Speaker E (unidentified): movement to make that work and therefore drove the cost up. Remember that all the compensation [5:26] Speaker D (unidentified): we get back went so then I don't think that's what's up. Okay, yeah, just nine other proposals [5:30] Kevin Sutherland: are for, I mean we looked at doing as part of that, we looked at doing roundabouts on both locations, the one downtown pretty tricky given the amount of, yeah, there's some limited today so you have to take some from some of the other property so it became cost just clarify [5:54] Speaker F (unidentified): the street is owned by the state, correct? And you have seen that you have not a point about it, yeah, right, we have, yeah, so part of that BPI process is making sure that [6:10] Kevin Sutherland: whatever designs that are put together as recommended alternatives pass muster with the engineers saying yes, this is not, this is technically feasible and it's all driven so now [6:28] Speaker F (unidentified): out so and you have not made any changes to what the company engineers put together. Well, I mean so [6:39] Clark Soloway: Not since it was like finalized and adopted by the town. These drawings are basically what's [6:45] Kevin Sutherland: we're working from. Yeah, this is the starting from which we will develop a more polished plan. [6:52] Speaker F (unidentified): So, we bring the gray hair to this. Right. Yes. [6:59] Kevin Sutherland: The reason why we're talking about it now instead of five years from now is because DOT considered this as, well, we have something that's designed that we can give to our senators to say, hey, can we get this in the pipeline? So it's all about timeline of funding. And because this is more live than some of the other financial options, this project has moved up just a bit. Otherwise, you know, D.O.T. would put it on the well, when we find funding for it, we'll get to it. So we're a little ahead of where I thought we'd be last year, but so here [7:32] Clark Soloway: we are. Yeah, you guys are actually in a really good spot. Yeah, for these kinds of things. [7:39] Speaker C (unidentified): Just to clarify, these drawings the same as in the right peers report? There's no changes from what [7:43] Kevin Sutherland: you look like from one right here submitted as part of our final report that the board supported. News opponents here, if you no changes. Yeah, I do have comments from some residents who attended. We had a Newcastle next meeting, oh my gosh, back in June or early July, where we did get some positive, you know, ideas and thoughts that I need to pass on to DOT. They haven't been incorporated into these designs yet, and Nigel has a really long list of things that he would like. So I need to make sure that DOT gets that too. Yeah, so we want to hear from you guys. That's what this is about. [8:30] Speaker F (unidentified): Well, do you want to pick parts of it or do you want to start and go the fall or what is what works best? [8:40] Clark Soloway: Yeah, if you start one and then go to the other, that could be good. [8:44] Kevin Sutherland: Yeah, so we're gonna come in a new castle coming down the hill. That's not the word one gratifying this [10:51] Speaker D (unidentified): This is the slowest traffic one way around the church. You want to hit that? No. [11:27] Clark Soloway: I think that's everybody we're calling in. [11:30] Speaker G (unidentified): Right, because the show is over the trees in a way. [11:33] Speaker D (unidentified): So the intention here for us is that there's really a super force. Do they not have the same sketch? Or do these? Yeah, they should have the same sketch that looks the same. This is down the corner. Was the curve cut that Seth put in one of the sidewalks extended up. So now the issue is that there's a curve cut here that allows for accessibility to the ramp that's going to be proposed here next spring, we hope, or within the next year or two. But the issue there is that it's not. So that would disappear, appear, but they're shorter, like maybe this has, yes, this is, this is basically one way here, so entrance, that's interesting. [13:27] Kevin Sutherland: Let me see where this, one thing we'd like to ask you. Yeah. Can I just read Mark? [13:33] Speaker D (unidentified): This is Mark. [Speaker G (unidentified): This is C.] This is Nigel. There it is. So, it was there. We shared it right away. That's coming up. Yes. [13:51] Speaker G (unidentified): I'm looking. That's just one issue. [14:24] Kevin Sutherland: Yes, well, I'm just wondering, right, cars here flow right, how about we come up here, right, so these [14:32] Speaker C (unidentified): they just have to watch each other when they come through, like these people are turning, yeah [14:38] Kevin Sutherland: there's no different than this except you'll have to go through the [14:41] Speaker H (unidentified): here, okay, so what about a yellow light for, because these guys coming down the hill gotta be aware that these people [14:52] Kevin Sutherland: grab steps in about four or two times, I live in here, it's going to be very good, big purpose, but well, but there's a left turn lane for the access and the crop area. [16:06] Speaker G (unidentified): Exactly. I don't know how expensive those are. Right, exactly. [16:08] Speaker D (unidentified): So you clearly have to, I guess, [16:11] Speaker G (unidentified): splash how fast you're going with the speed, right? [16:13] Kevin Sutherland: It's all that you can, those are coming in pretty slow. [16:16] Speaker G (unidentified): They're fairly effective. [16:18] Speaker D (unidentified): I mean, we just, we love the time. [16:20] Kevin Sutherland: Obviously, they have a lot of different people. [16:22] Speaker D (unidentified): So we, well, I'm gonna walk in on that. [16:24] Kevin Sutherland: No, I'm certain, I'm certain you're right there, it's a, but good,. Yeah, as it goes in town, yeah, that's right [18:35] Speaker G (unidentified): well it will be, it will be self enough here [18:39] Speaker H (unidentified): I always look for a spot right now, what do you have here, looks like especially [20:14] Kevin Sutherland: that's just, that's also just there, it is [20:19] Speaker D (unidentified): type of intersection there [20:44] Kevin Sutherland: but obviously there's still concerns about sight line, you know, you go up to a four-way stop, you won't be able to see the driver, so we'll make a decision, oh, we both pulled up at the same time, who's going right, well, the difference now, everybody here just keeps going, I'm holding it [21:55] Speaker G (unidentified): Once you come down the hill from here, [21:57] Clark Soloway: was that there was to be part of this intersection. [22:00] Speaker E (unidentified): So I guess at the time I heard this, [22:03] Kevin Sutherland: but was hoping for something more of a hybrid between them. Yeah, I mean, the slip lane, the concern was, oh, we need the slip lane in order to keep moving traffic through. [22:18] Speaker G (unidentified): The problem is, you have to look back at all these cars that are right here, [22:23] Kevin Sutherland: back them up, you can't get to the selection, so that's how valuable this was, a little more severe, really wide, yeah, well, that's the way they do it, that's not, they can be drawn better, yeah [22:39] Speaker E (unidentified): the geometry is off so much that it's not really a four-way, interesting, because right now people [22:44] Kevin Sutherland: Try to cross it here, across here, only if you're on those two of them, or cross down here. [22:51] Speaker E (unidentified): It doesn't make any sense to my driver, but if you're stopping in the middle of the road and you're coming up out of town, or you're coming down into town, there remains therapy. [23:04] Speaker G (unidentified): Yeah, I don't know how other folks feel about it. There's no parking here right now, because one resident is focused on setting up a parking [23:13] Speaker E (unidentified): there. I'm not worried about it because I do it now. [23:15] Speaker G (unidentified): We should change it. How do we want to, like we're talking about all kinds of things, how do we want to collect them? [26:52] Speaker E (unidentified): Yeah. So for sure. Yeah. [27:01] Kevin Sutherland: This is closer to what was suggested by the select board said, probably not the slip lane, but this isn't the four-way stop that they want to see because of the distances here the sightline [27:15] Speaker F (unidentified): issues that I've seen in here they want to modify this so they can say so they want to [27:21] Kevin Sutherland: tie it up closer to like here this is not a functional crosswalk for pedestrians I don't [27:29] Clark Soloway: disagree but you it's that it's designed to get trucks around so I don't know that you don't [27:35] Speaker E (unidentified): think that no I don't buy it for a second I'll tell you why I don't buy it for a second right here trucks come down this and make this turn all the time yeah 20 times a day that's too fancy this is look at look at that is huge that is a circle that's like this big that is a circle that's this big back right there and trucks can still navigate I don't buy the 18-wheeler argument at all. [28:04] Speaker H (unidentified): Or the school bus. [28:07] Speaker F (unidentified): No, we can do it every day. [28:09] Speaker D (unidentified): School buses, yeah. [28:10] Kevin Sutherland: So is that an extension too? Yeah, something like this. [28:15] Speaker G (unidentified): That's correct. Yeah. That's a different design. [28:17] Speaker E (unidentified): Yeah, and that's even tighter. It comes back. I'm sorry, I'm a little hot about it because I don't want to design an intersection around 18-wheelers when what we want is a pedestrian, [28:30] Kevin Sutherland: freedom save well tell the 18 wheelers to go up to Belvedere Road especially if the 18 wheelers can already navigate yeah they already are on a on a tighter turn turning radius I can see that yeah well that's what we're here for is to have these issues brought up and say hey this doesn't have to be a broad sweeping turn to accommodate those 18 it can be a much narrower yeah I mean [29:00] Speaker G (unidentified): they may not like it as much but I don't care they have other options to get the hand right [29:05] Speaker F (unidentified): and I've met truckers at these meetings it slows them down too [29:10] Clark Soloway: the newer version about the tightness of the turn as it exists they forgot about the argument [29:19] Speaker E (unidentified): Didn't want to build it for 18 wheelers, and the argument is to leave it the way that it is because it's perfect for them then, but it's horrible for a pedestrian and anyone else so. [29:31] Speaker H (unidentified): I'm sorry, like, but is this, is this, isn't is this a, this is a revision of no, this is one of these, this is. [29:37] Kevin Sutherland: One of the options right now we're only taking what, right, Pierce gave us, okay, what the board said, move forward with dot is here now to start hearing from us about what we still don't like about the right piercings and how we can fix it, got yeah, okay, yep, what do you want me to spend. [29:56] Clark Soloway: Right, that's the question, what is the issue with the slip plan one, it's unnecessary, yeah. [30:05] Speaker F (unidentified): You're gonna have a four-way stop, let's have a four-way start. [30:09] Kevin Sutherland: The slip lane can, I'm just gonna jump to it, sorry for all the. [30:21] Speaker G (unidentified): I wish there was room, that's my favorite, I love, I love those, yeah, so this is not room. [30:27] Kevin Sutherland: Yeah, the concern is you still have a slip lane with a four-way stop over here, and as soon as two or three cars get here you can't even get into the slip lane anyway, so as soon as this is backed up a little bit this is rendered useless, and from a pedestrian standpoint more challenging. I'd rather have more green space in a park, right? [30:52] Speaker E (unidentified): And hold on, this is perfect. I'm glad you went back to this one, because this is my argument, right? This radius here, let's pretend that this is green. [30:59] Speaker H (unidentified): From here, this is all green. [31:01] Speaker E (unidentified): This radius is just about the same as this radius. So if a truck can make this radius, a truck can make this radius. [31:10] Speaker F (unidentified): For there, continue on. Pull up the car and go to it. [31:15] Speaker E (unidentified): Yeah, and then look at the geometry of the sidewalks. That's a true four-way intersection with short sidewalks, good visibility for both drivers and pedestrians. [31:26] Speaker H (unidentified): If this design changes the existing radii at the bottom of academy hill because it brings mills road, it moves mills road east like 15 feet in this, in this design, yeah, oh that. [31:45] Speaker C (unidentified): Way, yeah, because you can see there's a. [31:46] Kevin Sutherland: Vehicle that's now section, yeah, right here, so that's actually moving in this road east, you know. [31:54] Speaker H (unidentified): 10 15 feet and it looks like it's reconfiguring the other corner as well it's not it's it's not as rounded as that now correct the one right at the public house no they all think it's taking part of the public house patio so if this so that 's not i mean the existing condition [32:18] Speaker G (unidentified): I don't know, I don't think it takes it, how do you, I think that's just, I think the road. [32:23] Speaker H (unidentified): Might have moved. Oh, that's the shadow, that's the shadow, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, and there's the shadow. Okay. But it still, it looks like, yeah, it's hard to tell. It is. The other side's clearly road cuss, yeah. [32:41] Speaker F (unidentified): So why is there a bike lane on this one and not on that one? [32:46] Kevin Sutherland: There isn't a bike lane. There is one on the printout. No, it's on the printout. It's a single sheet that he brought. That's an older rendition of what we were talking about. The bike lanes were dropped because they were bike lanes to nowhere. Oh, okay. The problem with downtown Lambruscada is that it's too narrow already to accommodate [33:15] Speaker F (unidentified): bike lanes. I'm not quite sure. [33:18] Kevin Sutherland: Yeah, no, you don't have to. I'm just explaining why. Yes, we looked at doing it because it was asked of us. So we looked at it. We just determined, decided not to use it. [33:27] Speaker D (unidentified): There was a little bit of a sense, too. Yeah. [33:31] Speaker G (unidentified): So refresh my memory. Why was the Mills Road intersection pushed east a little bit? [33:39] Kevin Sutherland: I'd have to reread the report to tell you why that was as I remember that going from [33:47] Speaker H (unidentified): you know southbound Mills Road on to westbound Academy Hill I mean that's the people with [33:54] Speaker G (unidentified): trailers keep taking out oh that's that yeah the crosswalk sign keeps getting knocked down third one since I've been here yeah third one in three years if it was on the other side of the Why couldn't it be against the curb from the old Wright store rather than at the edge of [34:23] Kevin Sutherland: the assembly? Great question. It should. that are designed I was going to move down and turn it to the curb side over in this word will not be taken out but there's a there's a retaining wall that gets the edge of the inside edge of that sidewalk I'm just trying to figure out so who's taking it down not from those turrets with any regulations that would require where you are [36:33] Speaker H (unidentified): So, in the other scenario, they actually would throw the intensity in the east. [36:42] Speaker G (unidentified): Because right now, the crosswalk, one keeps getting taken out by, we were just trying to figure out, I think it's trucks coming down Mills Road and turning right onto Academy Hill. It is. [36:55] Speaker H (unidentified): That's exactly where it is. Oh, really? Yep. There's plenty of road. [36:58] Kevin Sutherland: No, we're going down Mills Road and... That's just like Mills. I'm sorry. Down Mills and up Academy. That's where they take out the... [37:05] Speaker F (unidentified): it's essentially a right here yeah so I think we have consensus on this now by moving that area you know moving the island to the park yeah adding yeah yes moving what is currently this [37:26] Kevin Sutherland: Little island here over the park side, right, and then narrowing this intersection up here. [37:33] Speaker F (unidentified): The crosswalks, the long one would be short and the one at the south end would be more [37:41] Kevin Sutherland: comfortable. Would be closer to the intersection. Closer to the intersection. [37:45] Speaker F (unidentified): And no slip lane. [37:47] Speaker E (unidentified): And no slip lane. [37:51] Kevin Sutherland: Partially because we lose the utility of the slip lane as soon as there's any kind of back up. Right. [37:56] Speaker C (unidentified): Yeah. It's safer. [38:00] Speaker D (unidentified): It's not only a one-way backup but it's a two-way backup into the entrance into the parking lot right church, it's a significant backup now. [38:09] Speaker G (unidentified): I mean the preponderance of the traffic is going to be going through what would be a slip lane direction, correct, but that doesn't mean we're not going to have backup of people trying to go straight up the cat either, but most traffic does come down off Route 1 and take off right to town. [38:31] Speaker F (unidentified): A higher volume, correct, does that. But from a safety standpoint, for the people going in the other direction, they're exposed, you're going off the down ramp and going to Mills or Academy Hill, you're playing chicken with the slip, you know, the people paralleling the slipway. Less so with the traffic but you then block that skip line waiting through now with a light it will take your turn to. [39:12] Speaker D (unidentified): That same point and also in that consideration is your sign clutter so you have to be careful about number one take a look at the signs that are obsolete that are there like a train station and then take a look at what signs we have we brought that up to DRT before when we were talking about Steph Hanker about putting the you know the ramp in and put the curb cut in by the church so that's that's an issue which is that isn't science well the signs were besides in front of the church. Entrance and also. [39:54] Kevin Sutherland: In the in your current island somewhere might be town but most of them are deer tearing yeah. [40:03] Speaker D (unidentified): And then they called one day and said we want to review the sign review the signs and it had already been removed I'm not sure how they get rid of it but anyway the there's no issue there I guess someone it is it is an issue with sign clutter people coming through that intersection section you've got to see a real simple sign I'm sure you're trying to do something in the. [40:29] Kevin Sutherland: Leading up to that you know you're going to take a look at that 's a sign. [40:35] Speaker F (unidentified): Sign salad well yeah we had a private conversation at this table about the proposed ramp at the second coronation church are you aware of that discussion so why don't we Mike tell them what. [40:51] Kevin Sutherland: You learned about that. I'll show them. There's a new access ramp here to improve ADA access, church. And I think there is, I don't remember if there's already implemented the crop the [41:04] Speaker D (unidentified): curve cut and the crossing has been moved. It's been moved. It has been moved over here right by the CMP's telephone line in the power line. So pretty much through the through [41:16] Kevin Sutherland: this parking spot right here. So this trips with the ramp up to the stairs to the front door and [41:22] Speaker F (unidentified): right here down the side. Yeah, okay. So walk over here, the ground causes it, okay, and it parallels the sidewalk. It doesn't encroach them, but that sidewalk then becomes a primary drop-off and pick, and right now you have to sacrifice. So when you're agreeing to get there, this is going to obviously eliminate the parking on that right there. Yeah, those two spots. That's [41:56] Speaker G (unidentified): that's it. Yeah, that would, I'm sorry, you would be eliminating that case for [42:03] Kevin Sutherland: or moving it, just accommodating the crosswalk there. [42:06] Speaker G (unidentified): Oh, the crosswalks, right? Right here. They're right there right now, okay, got it. [42:10] Kevin Sutherland: There is one, but it's not being recognized here. It's just these two parking spaces got designed without taking into consideration there's a curb cut for the crosswalk. [42:21] Speaker G (unidentified): And you'd envision people pulling up and dropping off someone who's in a wheelchair, right there? Right. [42:27] Speaker D (unidentified): They can do that now, and the curb would be the crosswalk. [42:31] Speaker F (unidentified): And by the way, the reason for the ramp, it's not so much an entrance to the church. What if you had an emergency and people had to get out? We have an elevator, but typically the electricity doesn't work in an emergency. [42:43] Speaker D (unidentified): It's a major safety issue. [42:45] Speaker F (unidentified): So that's one of the largest. And chances are they're going to be advanced aged. [42:54] Speaker G (unidentified): Just look around Newcastle. So safer. Yes. [42:59] Speaker D (unidentified): Yeah, we run an elevator on any event, whether it's basically back to our service or whatever it is, you guarantee a minimum of a half dozen to maybe three dozen people using an elevator today, which is a residential elevator, which is put in before the current elevator code. Yeah. Could not construct it in the, you know, today, I think, original. So really, focused on Humburg and Humburg-Seged. [43:31] Speaker F (unidentified): To use your term, the volume is not really handicapped, the volume are canes. Look at how many people use canes, and the current steps are not made, they're not, you cold it's funny because people were shorter then but steps further [43:58] Kevin Sutherland: that's what we said we need to all get together yeah let's tell us what you think [44:12] Speaker G (unidentified): Is that kind of industry or, like, you know, we've gotten that far? We were talking about the first [Kevin Sutherland: note first.] Yeah, I don't think we had any. [44:36] Kevin Sutherland: Tell me how you make the left turn, the river road. There's a turn lane right there, right here now. You wait for everybody to slow down. The advantage here is it's actually drawn. Yeah. Right. Informal. Correct. You can just stop on the road, cross your banners. [44:57] Speaker E (unidentified): We have a lot of banners, when they're turning left, like to drift right. Yeah. Turn. [45:03] Speaker G (unidentified): You notice? Yeah. Yeah. Like the car can't turn. There's no turning radius. They don't want to hug that line. [45:11] Speaker E (unidentified): So they go this way, and then no one can get around them. [45:15] Speaker G (unidentified): Maybe they're all old semi-tractor trailer truck drivers. [45:18] Kevin Sutherland: Others just don't like, maybe it lasts a half an hour, they'll just be blocking it. Well, I think we're dropping them. My only thoughts about this are, how do I get vehicles to slow down sooner before they show up at this race? We were just talking about those [45:35] Speaker G (unidentified): little solar-operated speed ones that flash feedback signs, which the DOT has and will give [45:45] Kevin Sutherland: bucks. Yep, right, we just have to be first in line to ask for it. There is a long line. Yeah, people waiting, towns waiting for their speed. Then we, let's get it, let's have a look at the queue right now. In fact, we just got in queue to get it over in Sheepstick with Olman working with [46:00] Speaker G (unidentified): Olman. Good, so let's get, let's get one, get in line from one here too. All right, we need it no matter [46:05] Kevin Sutherland: what we do here. Yeah, note or, I mean, Kevin, and it's part of this, but okay, you all want to just [46:13] Speaker H (unidentified): soon. Okay, that's part of the design under other things, design-wise, not to slow traffic, the visual of your markings, but they won't see that until they're down at the intersection. So I think with a lot of that, could it be plantings, either as, you know, median trees, you know, just something to sort of close it, you know, perhaps seemingly close in the space [47:11] Kevin Sutherland: Where did that one come from? [47:14] Speaker C (unidentified): It's on this table. Is that the one we looked at before? [47:16] Speaker F (unidentified): I like that video. [47:22] Kevin Sutherland: Where did that meet you from? I don't even have that. [47:28] Speaker F (unidentified): That's not what I mean. [47:29] Kevin Sutherland: Can you move the 25 mile an hour speed limit [47:31] Speaker H (unidentified): further up the hill so that [47:33] Speaker E (unidentified): they have to start slowing down earlier? Sooner. [47:36] Speaker H (unidentified): It's not that much here. [47:38] Kevin Sutherland: It's like 100 feet of 35 miles per hour. No, a couple of hours. Because it doesn't get to 25 until it's down the street. Right, and that's why it's so wide. I don't think you can see, but I think maybe there's a little bit of a divergence here. [47:53] Clark Soloway: Do you think there, if you move the sign, it's not... [47:57] Speaker H (unidentified): I think you need to visually narrow it down. Something whether it's actually down a hill or narrowing the travel lane or getting through other plates people have to finish that or really because traffic is coming down that hill so fast, right? If traffic was coming down the hills more slowly, we could almost get away with not doing anything. I mean, I think it's still awkward the way it is, but the problems I think are primarily due to the speed of the approaching traffic. So whatever we can do to slow that traffic before they get there. We know the on-street parking, once they get there, they're going to say, hey, I'm in town, I need to slow down. But it's how do we get [48:40] Kevin Sutherland: them before they get in that intersection. That race platform is going to do a [48:44] Speaker G (unidentified): little bit. You know, I hit that at 50. The table. The table, yeah. But people, I mean, [48:49] Speaker H (unidentified): people you don't know the area will notice what I say over until they're [48:55] Kevin Sutherland: full slamming on the brakes to hit it 's you don't speak it's it's a broader section that makes it then a speed bump just kind of raised the intersection a little bit plateaus and then drops it back down the other side so when you come up to it you're going to feel it yeah you're ultimately going to slam on brakes [49:20] Clark Soloway: yeah it's like a like a raised crossbar but it's the whole intersection [49:36] Speaker F (unidentified): hey there's something there's something up ahead well that needs to be telegraphed people coming them down because they're going to have the same experience they have a lot more speed yeah i'm not [49:48] Kevin Sutherland: sure if anybody's familiar with downtown brunswick yeah they have on their speed hubs they have these like chevrons that i can see that being an indicator right that it's coming [50:06] Speaker E (unidentified): up so yeah maybe there's some signage along where they are something the compact urban is always a [50:12] Kevin Sutherland: review the speed zones up ahead and there are a number of ways to signal this is a new area that you're not you're not on the highway and you're coming into a village that's lord i am so slow down village ahead welcome to newcastle there's a whole process of options there to help change the to change the environment so that people feel like they're here, you know, back up on their one. [50:49] Speaker D (unidentified): Put slow at the end of it would be better instead of slow villager hat, what about that? Villager hat's slow. [50:57] Kevin Sutherland: Slow down. I think of the same thing, when they have the, slow gilder, I like it, 's very [51:11] Speaker E (unidentified): Rob, you're absolutely right though. It has to be physical elements. The lane has to not just be painted narrower, but it has to have other physical elements that make it very [51:23] Speaker G (unidentified): obvious. What are the, like the little, I don't know if they're... [51:27] Speaker E (unidentified): Jersey barriers? Just lying on the wall? [51:29] Speaker G (unidentified): No, they're all cut up, so like rumble strips? Mamba strips? [51:33] Clark Soloway: Rumble strips? Transverse rumble strips? [51:37] Speaker G (unidentified): Are those, do they get plowed up? Are they fairly easy to, oh no, they're ground in. [51:42] Kevin Sutherland: They're ground into the... Yeah. [51:44] Speaker G (unidentified): Are they fairly effective in catching people's attention? [51:48] Clark Soloway: I don't think we've ever really used, like, the transfers. [51:52] Kevin Sutherland: Oh, well, there's rumble strips, and there's mumble strips. Because I know some of the ones are less loud. The problem is noise. I've never heard of that. There's that. It's also, I think they are more expensive to implement, the mumble strips. And I know that they're, I've touched base with our safety, [52:14] Clark Soloway: the head of our safety office. [52:15] Kevin Sutherland: And I think transverse rumble strips are not really something that we'd use. [52:20] Clark Soloway: This they have them in one room place I don't think they're a tough one yeah. [52:27] Speaker F (unidentified): The other the alternative like the sun [52:30] Kevin Sutherland: Really loud for the you know you have several residential properties [52:41] Speaker F (unidentified): So I don't go so pleased though to fix this [52:47] Kevin Sutherland: Well there's weirdly there's this version here that has sort of a green island on it and this one that you see on the screen does not that helps visualize hey you're coming into it yeah. [53:02] Clark Soloway: And you could you could also do that island like farther back maybe have a way between [53:08] Kevin Sutherland: and something that 's like a gateway yeah there is there is a meeting so it's way back up this way yeah so there's how do i you know keep that going but and maybe yeah that's on this one that's on this one it's there i guess but it's [53:33] Speaker G (unidentified): But that green strip is just that ugly green paint is red. Sorry, but it's not. If it could be more of a grass color. [53:46] Kevin Sutherland: It's not my personal color. [53:49] Speaker G (unidentified): If it was grass colored, it's one thing. It's like a neon color. [53:53] Kevin Sutherland: Oh, it looks like the inside of a Soviet fighter jet. There you go. It's that white, off-putting grass. [54:00] Speaker G (unidentified): Yeah, what's left if he was in a Soviet fighter jet? [54:04] Speaker E (unidentified): there's a serious go back scroll back up right there where the medium starts yeah and then continues up to the request yeah each side of that medium is enough for two full lanes and cars so you have two on this side two on that side and still have room for sidewalks I know this because I went up there about 15 years ago with someone from the DIT and we measured and said oh my god there's [54:31] Clark Soloway: enough room for two lanes of traffic and sidewalks under that overpass. So what we would do with a gateway treatment would be like that, an island, I don't remember if it's like 50 or 100 feet long maybe, and then pinch in and decide on the side, bring the sides away, and that's what I [54:52] Speaker E (unidentified): got. I don't know what I'm saying. It's like right now coming down from the off ramp you have the travel lane and you have literally a whole other lane to your right, so you've got enough room to [55:02] Clark Soloway: bring that median all the way down, but if you do that with also bringing the sides on the side, yes, [55:11] Speaker E (unidentified): just return a lot of that to your ass, ground it up, you don't, just don't need it, and [55:20] Speaker F (unidentified): that will lower the speech, it [55:24] Speaker G (unidentified): costs less to pave in the future. That's their advantage, right? Well, [55:31] Kevin Sutherland: I can argue, we can argue for them. I'm just putting these notes down for you guys. [55:43] Speaker G (unidentified): That intersection would be less confusing. That would be nice too, because if people do, I see people drive onto that and they're like, when they go back up to the other part where we come on here, you know, they've got that little weird loopy thing there and people go down it and then like turn the wrong way on the one-way part and it's, that's the whole idea between behind [56:06] Kevin Sutherland: you know, eliminating this part and this part, yeah, and simplifying it to just, where did that come from? [56:16] Speaker G (unidentified): Of course I'm looking at them thinking how are we going to, now the town's going to be mowing more lawn or planting more flowers and trying to find volunteers to [56:28] Kevin Sutherland: take care of it, so we'll have to, that's a good problem, yeah, we'll have to come up with a better regard, more of a garden crew, definitely, just gotta ask the group to show up. Didn't you end up with a couple more people showing expressed interest? Yeah, two more. You gotta keep doing that. Why is the, why is there a [56:47] Speaker F (unidentified): sidewalk looped up around to that right here, yeah, when you have the straight side? Oh, but you don't, oh, I see it, okay. Did you get black and orange? Your car is parked there, [57:04] Speaker D (unidentified): yep, that's why I got it already, but you could try to, try to minimize the signs of that. We're green, remember this, it's a nice entrance to the top, yeah. Oh, this would require us [57:17] Speaker G (unidentified): To assign this there now or no? Where's no? They probably want to just, because I feel like it's misplaced. Where is it right now in the scheme? I can't do it. [57:31] Speaker E (unidentified): Only where his cursor is somewhere in here all. [57:36] Speaker H (unidentified): Right, do we want to move to the [57:40] Kevin Sutherland: the other? Yes, you have it. You guys have anything else about this one? No, so you guys jump to, well, it's in the report. Yes, I'm not just talking to fall off the back of the truck. We talked about this at least this part of it. I wanted to add, I'd love to see more of this do T right away. Yeah, turn in this civic space. We he we asked Frank Pierce to do that for us, but this is what we got because one person from that [58:17] Speaker G (unidentified): that's involved with that apartment building said no, we need our parking spaces. It's in the DOT right away, the parking. It's not their parking space, I'd argue the same on the [58:26] Speaker E (unidentified): other side of the road here. Yeah, right across, look at this, the shuck station. Yeah, that line, that line, that line that your Chris is on. Yeah, that's the DOT setback, so that's what's the [58:38] Speaker H (unidentified): property. Yeah, property line. I mean, the property line is at least 10 feet back from the existing side. There's a massive amount of space on both sides that, you know, I think it doesn't make sense. [58:52] Kevin Sutherland: You know, it should be civic space. All right, so this is this is the property, it's this light, it's the other side of it, so it's right here, right in front of standard. It's crazy, right in front of the standard, right in front of the building next to it. Yeah, so it's a really a unique opportunity to create a public space for residents, and I think at least we heard [59:32] Speaker G (unidentified): from one or two people in the standard, and they were, they're great with that. Yeah, supportive of [59:37] Speaker H (unidentified): that. We've got a linear park that ties, I mean, in this scenario we're going to have a larger a memorial park, and you've got enough space for trees and streetscape and parking and more. You know, I keep arguing for angle parking and people say I don't like it, but I think you could have a lot more parking in here, and you know, trees, landscaping, hardscape, a really nice new space. [1:00:05] Speaker G (unidentified): Well, would it not make sense then to maybe have angled parking in front of where we're taking what they're using currently as parking, we've angled that it would be room for them to all park there too. And still have- [1:00:17] Clark Soloway: Angled instead of this power park? [1:00:19] Speaker G (unidentified): This, I think, I'm looking at. [1:00:25] Kevin Sutherland: This is the standard. [1:00:27] Speaker G (unidentified): So this is an apartment building right here, and they park here, they've got a number of spaces. What if we had angled parking here, at just there maybe that would still give us a strip, a fairly wide strip. Yeah, I mean it would [1:00:42] Kevin Sutherland: be funky with the sidewalk. I'd do some funky stuff, but I think the same thing on the other side. Yeah, let's say rocks all that space, although I mean there's a lot more park out there. [1:00:54] Speaker G (unidentified): It could be angled there too. Yeah, just for that space. [1:00:59] Speaker H (unidentified): And just the curve cut is wrong on the truck station property. I was gonna say can we get whether you're well there's a there's a that's that's the current cuts up there. Yeah, years ago then we moved the curve cut east, so the curve cut is currently right at the corner property, right about there. Yeah, so that curve cut would want to say that the other one doesn't exist, the one that's depicted, the one that's depicted here is it doesn't exist. [1:01:32] Speaker D (unidentified): This it's actually burger east. You may you may impact the safety of the slanted parking as well as move the traffic those who want to park at the park faster. [1:01:51] Speaker C (unidentified): I think it's important, it's important to point out, I can introduce, you know, this for angle parking was eliminated centers because it had a high accident rate, right. But there's what they do now is reversing, and that is similar where about the angle, you know, the person has to back into the space. Yes, it's still angle parking like us. [1:02:15] Clark Soloway: Our state traffic engineer will remind you that every town that has tried that. [1:02:51] Speaker C (unidentified): I think, yeah. But then, I like your idea. It's a demonstrated issue. [1:02:56] Clark Soloway: Clearly, there's a lot of crashes there. I mean, that's a thing to go address. Okay. [1:03:00] Speaker H (unidentified): Is it common to find a high accident rate with angle parking in Virginia? Or is it sort of specific location that causes something? [1:03:12] Clark Soloway: There's another factor. Probably. I'm not sure. [1:03:16] Speaker C (unidentified): Is there a factor backing out into traffic? [1:03:19] Speaker H (unidentified): Right, but just the data show that. I mean, I get it that in theory that might be true. [1:03:23] Clark Soloway: I'm just asking if they have that. Yeah, I don't know if any, like, this is clearly an issue that we need to, like, systemically don't fix. Okay. Okay. [1:03:33] Speaker D (unidentified): Well, you get the fact that there's a teenage driver, there's no truck, there's no cameras, and then so then your angle parking solution. [1:03:42] Clark Soloway: Is there a consensus? I don't think we have any consensus. [1:03:45] Speaker F (unidentified): Is there consensus in the room about angle parking in front of the apartments and condominiums and retail store on the west [1:03:58] Kevin Sutherland: side of the street? It'd be worth at least a conceptual design. [1:04:02] Clark Soloway: Like seeing the right of way angle parking? [1:04:04] Kevin Sutherland: Using this right of way that's down here to move the sidewalk where it has more angle parking here. Exactly. What we'd really like to do is our course doesn't require parking spaces you want to [1:04:19] Speaker E (unidentified): not do the ones on this side I wanted to look at doing angle parking here and [1:04:28] Kevin Sutherland: angle parking here to allow for this to be more of a green park space or a civic space you know it might be patio type with benches and trees and outdoor event space that angled parking in front of the apartment complex that we consider public or would it be public but the residents [1:04:55] Speaker G (unidentified): would end up using it all the time yeah yes I [1:05:00] Speaker H (unidentified): think in general I think I think my thing is we've got all this land that's sort of no man's land right now. It's behind a sidewalk or, you know, it's just awkward and unused. But it can't be, you know, there's limits to how much you can use it. So it's all public space, you know, and between parking, you know, plantings and streetscape, I think that we've got an opportunity for a really neat new space it's [1:05:36] Kevin Sutherland: a once in a lifetime chance does anybody know how [1:05:39] Speaker G (unidentified): many apartments are in that the old Stetson house and barn like eight okay [1:05:50] Kevin Sutherland: that [1:05:51] Speaker E (unidentified): linear park is drawn on the cover of our conference yes I'm just saying it's not a new concept [1:06:00] Speaker G (unidentified): is that right the only other thing I'm curious about we've got parallel parking in front of the front of the Tana Scott we actually have parking spaces beside the team Scott I don't even give them away all right we parked two or three vehicles town employees But Kevin, Kara, Jim, all parked, let me pull it back up again, but yeah, they've got parking here for like four cars right now. And if we do this. [1:06:51] Speaker F (unidentified): The one that's off on the sheriff's, I don't understand. [1:06:54] Speaker G (unidentified): Yeah. You're just sitting there. I think you'll pull people over if they blow the stop signs but yeah some people do you see where we're trying yeah did you kind of see back here we've always got two cars there sometimes three or four in this area so I don't know if that makes sense or not and I'll watch the park in the street [1:07:19] Kevin Sutherland: that's fine too and thinking long term if that site were to be developed [1:07:25] Speaker H (unidentified): developed in a year you've changed the bill too yeah [1:07:32] Speaker F (unidentified): I think having your street [1:07:33] Speaker D (unidentified): money but you could get more during delivery because [1:07:40] Speaker F (unidentified): I've gone to the town office and found all the spaces yeah and always asking stuff how many of these are four days three I mean I'm on [1:07:50] Kevin Sutherland: the front side yeah well I'm sorry about the side there's seven of us in that office at any [1:07:56] Speaker E (unidentified): Given time, so Rob, not to argue too much with you, but in front of the check station there, I'd actually argue against the angle parking and instead moving that the right-of-way line down to the edge of the sidewalk so that whatever you build [1:08:10] Speaker H (unidentified): on the sidewalk, the only problem, the only pitch in that is the power line overhead, head again, you would, you know, it's there. I don't want to pull or move for you. Yeah, no, I'm open to that. I mean, I mean, I again, I think that I've always been thinking about it in civic space, not building space, but I get that. But, you know, I think as much as we're focused [1:08:42] Speaker E (unidentified): not traffic here, the goals of Newcastle, not necessarily the DOT, but the goals of Newcastle is to build the village. Part of that is to allow buildings to come right up onto that sidewalk, and so having that as, you know, right now a building could sit on the sidewalk where the town office is. It could be built right close to the side, right, but it can't on your property at all, another 10 feet or so. Yeah, right, yeah, and on the other side it's the same thing, and so we won't, we'd [1:09:15] Kevin Sutherland: like to have those buildings be able to, the gas station's already doing it, there are canopies [1:09:22] Speaker E (unidentified): but look at that forces it way back, it pushes the buildings back, which means that you have more of a, less of a village tunnel like you do when you cross the bridge into the Roscato. We want to replicate that sense of village, or a different idea that [1:09:40] Speaker H (unidentified): it's this really cool civic space. I mean, I mean, yes, I don't disagree with you, but I would still [1:09:46] Speaker E (unidentified): push for the uniformity and change the, bring it, bring it, and then if we want to encourage civic space development on the other side of the sidewalks, we can do that within our own code. Yeah, and do he has given us the right to have the space and yet and develop it privately or publicly [1:10:03] Speaker H (unidentified): Yeah, probably people go here to go gas [1:10:11] Speaker G (unidentified): When I want to keep it [1:10:21] Speaker F (unidentified): Problem with that one working spot [1:10:24] Speaker G (unidentified): lot just coming up that looks to me like an accident waiting to happen [1:10:35] Kevin Sutherland: well I think as you start to look at the ins and outs of this, there are spots that shouldn't be there. Please have a conversation, but we want to optimize it, we want to optimize free parking because that's where we want cars to be, we don't want parking lots, but that one [1:10:57] Speaker F (unidentified): right after career [1:11:14] Speaker E (unidentified): Well, it might end up being two-spot if that curve around the park is tighter. [1:11:22] Kevin Sutherland: Because you get more real estate this way. Yes. And [1:11:30] Speaker H (unidentified): Again, traffic wouldn't be flying through there the way they do now. It would have had to have just stopped. Yeah, so just, yeah, so you know, I know we heard, we heard in some of the other meetings from people on Main Street, you know, the other side of the church, who are really concerned about on-street parking and with traffic speeds going out there now that creepy challenge getting out of the whole goal of this exercise is that traffic will be slower and so that on-street parking will be [1:12:03] Speaker F (unidentified): easier to access. But if it's parallel as it is now, then people that get green light can't move because that car is really in and out. Now all that happens when there's someone entering or leaving [1:12:20] Speaker E (unidentified): So yeah, you just have something very interesting. I don't think anyone is in, maybe we need to be explicit about this, I don't think anyone is envisioning that there are actual lights, red yellow green lights, but this is not a control, it's stop signs. I just want to make it clear [1:12:40] Kevin Sutherland: Traffic study that was done, we went to island, did not show enough traffic that required wire that would prevent us from just doing this as a four-way stop. There isn't enough [1:12:54] Clark Soloway: traffic. Which is what you're referring to? [1:12:57] Kevin Sutherland: A four-way stop, yes. One that has better sight vision, your sight line, at least. [1:13:03] Speaker H (unidentified): And better logic. Yeah, but I also think we, and given the [1:13:09] Speaker E (unidentified): choice, am I wrong that we would all prefer stop signs to lights? [1:13:21] Speaker H (unidentified): I think it scales better. I mean obviously the times a year when there isn't a traffic four-way stop isn't much of a slow down, but it also will work when there's a lot of traffic [1:13:33] Kevin Sutherland: whereas light would be annoying. Yes, when there's a lot of traffic it has nothing to do with our downhill. Oh right, the backup, the backup is caused by the pedestrian traffic in damer stop and the people, the car is trying to do the parallel parking which, okay, it's just an extension of a dam. Yep, and that's what I'm hopeful for. We haven't talked about possibly parking Wills Road, we haven't gone to that one. Let's do that real quick because it's getting in George, that was one that I know the board was Really wanting to see our Mills Road. At least the concern, yeah, the concern is that it's a pretty narrow right away. However, the goal was to try to at least accommodate parking on one side. It's happening now. If you drive up there, you'll see in front of the two eight unit buildings on Ells Road, they're the contractors used it when they were building, when they were doing a project, and now it's just become this dead grass zone that now the people are using as part of the project. Yeah, it works, right? Here there's two 16 units in two buildings, eight units per building. [1:15:00] Speaker G (unidentified): And there's anywhere from three to six cars parked along the road at any given [1:15:05] Kevin Sutherland: evening. And then there's a not, there's just a room where the cars are parking in there, and they're not over the white line, and they're still signed, so it can accommodate. Where am I? Yeah, where am I? Sorry, it's this one. No, where'd it go? That's the same one. [1:15:33] Speaker D (unidentified): English will spice in there. [1:15:42] Kevin Sutherland: Yeah, there's Mills Road. Okay, it's this spot right here, so there's parking that's [1:15:50] Speaker E (unidentified): happening right here. I wanted to say one thing and then I gotta go because I gotta pick up my daughter. I think our perception of Mills Road is skewed because there's trees on it. I have physically gone out and measured in three different places along Mills Road, and the width along Mills Road is exactly the same amount of width that exists in front of the Congo Church. It is exactly, the same number, but because there aren't trees in front of Milser and you see just a sea of pavement, it feels more open. So when we argue that there isn't room for parking, there is 100% room for parking, even on both sides. Wow. Wow. [1:16:40] Speaker G (unidentified): So we were told, somebody, I thought, in engineering, said there's enough to do parking on one side and a sidewalk on the other. [1:16:47] Speaker E (unidentified): No, someone measured it exactly the same. You don't need to [1:16:51] Clark Soloway: do it from the right of way there. If you know what that means. [1:16:56] Kevin Sutherland: Parking on one side. That's fine. I just want to be able to comment on that. There is the challenge, and it's something [1:17:01] Speaker H (unidentified): that was in the new addition to the Corazonian code, protecting those trees. Correct. So I think there is a challenge. of doing too much, you know, excavation that could, yeah, could, you know, threaten. My point is [1:17:20] Speaker E (unidentified): just there's more room than it feels. Yeah, okay, all right, but I don't think my personal opinion [1:17:27] Speaker G (unidentified): would be, I don't think we need, I'm working with that whole length of Mills Road down to Stewart. [1:17:31] Kevin Sutherland: Street, I think that might be overkill trying to trying to accommodate some parking on like I don't have the visual in this report, but I'm trying to accommodate some parking along the ID, given that it's happening already. [1:17:49] Speaker H (unidentified): And I think the draft also had sidewalks on both sides. But one side is open up by driveways.. I'm not sure whether you need sidewalks on both sides. [1:18:03] Kevin Sutherland: One side sidewalk, one side parking. Parking or parking and sidewalk and traveling the sidewalk and the parking yeah you're right because if you get out of your car you want to go to the sidewalk there you [1:18:17] Speaker G (unidentified): go good thing no you should be you have a good no you have good Newcastle ideas Yes. [1:18:27] Speaker C (unidentified): You walk. Pardon me, can you hear me? I want that. Slow that down. Slow it down. [1:18:31] Speaker F (unidentified): It's 30. Okay. [1:18:35] Kevin Sutherland: That's, I think we're gonna end today's discussion. I know this time for it is another meeting. Thank you all for coming. I appreciate the input that was provided. We're gonna do it again later on after we get things done on paper, but I appreciate everyone coming today. Well, perfect. I haven't scheduled the next New Classic next but I will sometimes send it out everyone you know we've got a new website your job ways to get it great we're not on my generation please join come to me sign up for the email or text message notification that's not changing Kevin thanks for getting this all set up yeah thanks for coming We're going to get a vaccine today.