Bangor council signals it won't close railroad encampment on Dec. 19

[0:27] Susan Hawes: Okay, good morning. This is actually a special council meeting that is the continuation of the discussion that we started at our last meeting concerning the encampment, and we wanted further discussion. We brought some extra people in today that will be able to answer questions or provide more information. This is a workshop, so we do not have a plan to do actual public comments. Well, we wanted that, we need this time as a council to really start formulating the plan that we promised that we would be working on, and that is why we're here today, so [1:08] Carollynn Lear: that, let's get right to it, and you want to turn up, sure. I have emailed you something this morning that, I, it occurred to us after the last meeting that it would likely be helpful to counselors if we just put together in writing, and does anyone not have a copy? I have paper copies because I acknowledge it was set to be late, helpful to have just in writing what the strategies are currently that the city is using in the train track encampment space. I actually don't intend to go over these because it's just putting happening in writing is that we don't talk about verbally over the course of the last several weeks, but certainly if you have questions about it, myself or other folks here can answer. I really wanted to first start with giving an update on what the city staff that are sort of regularly in that space are seeing on the ground. I had given you an update last week that had indicated that the original numbers started somewhere around the 40s of individuals who are living in the encampment space. And then last week they dropped by approximately 10, understanding that it's a bit of a moving target. As of this week, the numbers are about 20 folks staying in that space overnight. night, I can, and when we're seeing sort of a corresponding increase in the number of individuals that are staying in warming centers as well, and so I think that sort of logically makes sense as it relates to the weather conditions that we're seeing outside right now. It's very cold, we've gotten several instances of snow, so you know, in my mind that certainly make sense that folks would stop sleeping in that space, but I think it would be, it would be fair for us to all acknowledge that a space with a high of 20 people staying in it overnight is meaningfully different than a space with over 40 people living there overnight. I mean, the gravity of that sort of safety issue and crisis situation has improved substantially over the course of the last two weeks. And so I think as we talk about strategies to address the encampment, we should really keep in mind that sort of the gravity of the situation, the temperature of the situation is going in the right direction. [4:14] Carolyn Fish: Any questions about that? I apologize. I had technical difficulties today. So I apologize. [4:25] Carollynn Lear: Are you looking for just questions about the memo or memo or the update on sort of what's happening? [4:31] Michael Beck: Sure. I guess I'll just throw my first question out there. When I read through this memo, I kind of did a little strategy check with strategies. Strategies is this memo basically making a case for asking for more time because that's what it appears to be for some of the key strategies missing? Yeah, I mean, we can certainly we can [4:51] Carollynn Lear: talk through the date. I think we've heard a lot of public input about the date. I imagine that will be a necessary component of this conversation today. I don't know that we're making a case for or against a particular change or a particular date. This was just sort of where we are. Okay. [5:11] Michael Beck: Reason why I'm saying is just I really appreciate the work that's being done so far. I guess my concerns are just there's some critical strategies that are not being implemented of, for example, strategy 10, you know, sanitation hygiene, you know, that I don't know if we've actually gone in there and tried to make trash pick up available for them, if you've done anything to make bathrooms available for them during this time. Strategy 14, you know, an interim strategy for, you know, which is part of what we're going to talk about today, the possibility of a safe outdoor space, but that kind of leads into strategy 16 where the guides say don't do this unless you're ready the day you close to have a place for people to go to one of these spaces. And so I'm just already making the case again that, you know, this memo I appreciate because it kind of goes back with what I've been saying all along, that we just need more time, which is what the email I had sent to council earlier was about, you know, the advice given us to staff when we did the same thing with Camp Hope where, you know, it was clear that more time was needed, and so more time was granted, and we got a chance to see how that helped during that transition period. So, you know, we've got more work to do, and I think that seven days is not enough. [6:36] Carollynn Lear: I think one of the questions that is in my mind, and it is truly a question, it is not one that I have explored with my very smart and expert team, is whether, given the numbers we have today, is there a way to allow people to safely stay in that space as we continue to work all of these strategies to try to move people from living outside into housing, but keep them away from the railroad, which would require potentially moving people from their current location, and also put have them reside in a space where, in the event that they need public safety or emergency medicine assistance, that employees aren't trying to navigate an active railroad while responding to those spaces. I don't know that I have an answer today to tell you 100 yes there would be a way to move people to essentially the city-owned portion of that area, but I think it is worth exploring, because I think what you've heard and some of us have heard as we've been hearing public comment, that the transition from one space to another there will be impacts on the population from that. [7:55] Michael Beck: Right, because my biggest concern is, I don't want to trade the possibility of danger for the guarantee of it. Because there will be harm, regardless of what we decide as far as moving goes. So I mean, that's really the ultimate question is, we're going from a possibility of harm to a guarantee. And so I just want to make sure we've fully weighed the risks as we're going through this. [8:17] Susan Hawes: I think part of the discussion that some of us have had individually or whatever, if they were able to move away from the tracks, stay on city property, they would have to move their things, but not like they would have to move across town or to another total location. There are places down there that they would have the trash facilities. They could have, I don't know, maybe a porta potty down there or whatever could be looked at. If that is the least harm to them that allows them to stay there safely and to have only 20 staying overnight, that's not really the worst place they could be in. And it is accessible for police, fire, EMS to get down there if they have to, without crossing tracks, without tripping over railroad ties. The further you go that way, there's a lot of concern down there. It's also away from the businesses that have had concerns with people camping behind them. they're not there now they're more up in this other area if we were to move folks right if we move them they're going to be away from that so I think it's something we should consider I would like to hear from Jen about the resource people are they getting in there okay is that something that can be done on a regular basis so we will ask that of her when she joins us as well sure [10:03] Michael Beck: And just so I don't lose this thought, is, you know, regarding the move, one of the constraints that was raised from the residents when I was meeting with them is tents are frozen on the ground now. So we may have to consider, you know, because we try to pull them up, they're going to get destroyed. So we also have to consider as part of this what can we do to help with a replacement tent or structure or something if that's, if moving that way is what's decided. That's been I. [10:27] Susan Faloon: Know there is an agency that has some tents that we could, so probably enough. My question, the 20-ish people, and this may not be a question you can answer, but like, are they engaging? Do we know what their plan is? Are there conversations happening with them? Jen has given me very detailed. [10:51] Carollynn Lear: Statistics about sort of the makeup of that population, but I feel like it would be best to hear it from Jen rather than have me just, yeah, struggle through it. Good. [11:05] Jen Gunderman: Morning, Jen Gunderman, director of Bangor Public Health and Community Services. So I want to report that the data that we're receiving is through the really hard work of the PATH team, the HOME team, BCAT, city outreach, and PCHC, and many others. So they have developed a binding list, which is an evidence-based practice, and that's a list that they go through regularly. Jen Lawler, the Hub 7 coordinator, has graciously taken on the responsibility to keep that list updated and reviewing it. So I just wanna make sure we give credit where credit is due. Of the 20 people that are still in that space, and the way that has been defined is people who are in that space overnight and the day. It really is where they've been staying. And again, that ebbs and flows based upon weather and other situations. At this moment, of those 20 people, six people have a housing voucher. That means that they have been matched to a housing voucher, they've completed the paperwork, and now they are working with their case manager, PATH outreach worker, case manager to find housing. Not an easy task, but that's a hurdle that's been sort of gone over. There's an additional about a couple of people who have been matched to a voucher, meaning that they've been assigned one. They haven't completed the paperwork yet to get the voucher in hand to start their housing journey. And then there's about another two people who are queued up to be in the next set of vouchers when they become available. So we're looking at about 10 people out of that 20 that have a resource or potentially will have an upcoming resource when available. PATH and others are there in that space on a regular basis. I know PATH, and again, PATH is the major player here. They take on most of the people in that space to provide the support services. And they're in that space three days a week, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. day, actively, proactively engaging with people. So I would say based upon the by name list that I saw, most of those 20 people are engaged in some way. There's about another 10 individuals that they could sort of observe that still may have storage down in that area, but they but they may be coming back during the day keeping their stuff there. of that 10 there are a couple people who have housing vouchers and there's a couple of people who again have been matched to a voucher but haven't finished the paperwork. when i say they haven't finished the paperwork path and others are working with them to do that it's not like here's your paperwork good luck there's an active engagement. And then there's been about another ton of people that they have known that have lived in that space that aren't in that space now. Maybe they still have a few things, but there hasn't been an evidence that they've been in that space for a while for many different reasons. So that's kind of the overview of what engagement and resources look like in that space. [14:47] Susan Faloon: There appear to be any who are just not engaging and not wanting to leave and not wanting to take action and just kind of want to be left alone. [14:59] Jen Gunderman: Yes, there's always a couple of people that feel that way for many different reasons. It's very complex, as you know. I would say that also engagement ebbs and flows depending upon how somebody is feeling that day. People who are in crisis don't want to respond, but generally speaking, the majority of people are engaging. [15:27] Susan Hawes: Any other questions? Comments? Go. [15:30] Michael Beck: One of the concerns that was raised during the Camp Hope closure was the spread of HIV. Obviously, now with 32 cases, I would assume that worry would be increased versus where it was. Where are we with that concern about spread quickening like we were with Camp Hope? [15:47] Jen Gunderman: So we are at 32 cases. So this is a tricky situation because two things can be true at the same time. So an encampment situation is a congregate living situation that creates a high risk environment for transmission. We also know that when people are displaced from an area that can break service delivery to them, and so somebody who is looking to street medicine to provide their treatment, you know, treatment is really important. I honestly can't sit here and say what's one is better than the other, but I think both need to be considered. The con, what we saw up in Camp Hope was a lot of congregate living, and that does create an environment. I do want to, so this is the epidemiologist in me kicking in, I do want us to be very careful with the word cause, that the encampment causes or the disbandment causes. We don't know, right? We really honestly don't know which is the higher risk situation. Neither of them are great choices. [17:15] Wayne Mallar: Financially, what's the cost of maintaining an encampment for us? [17:21] Jen Gunderman: Depends what you want an encampment. What are you spending now? Well, at this point, I don't have an actual cost for you. What it would be at this point are if I was to build a budget right now, we'd have our city staff time, our city outreach worker,, our BCAT team, and other city staff time. There's also the bus tickets, the material needs that we're providing in that space. That's pretty much what the city has been providing. We have also provided trash bags for some maintenance in that area. So I'd say those are the predominant costs at this time. What a safe open space or authorized encampment would look like would definitely depend upon the infrastructure that you would want to build in that space. There are models out there and there is some general estimations based upon the models that are seen in Colorado, Texas, about 2,000 a person per month. [18:24] Wayne Mallar: What are the models used in Maine? [18:27] Jen Gunderman: There are no models that are used in Maine. [18:31] Wayne Mallar: So we don't have anything to compare it to other than areas? Correct. What about New England? [18:42] Jen Gunderman: The research that I have done I'm not aware there could be I am not aware of where there are case studies or models or research that have come out of those authorized encampments in New England. [18:58] Wayne Mallar: So we really don't have anything to base an authorized encampment on locally from the New England area. Not been a successful, could you say it's not been successful or never been fried? Don't know that history. Yeah, so where the guinea pig I. [19:19] Michael Beck: Assume, okay, so I've been doing some research into that, and the closest one I can find weather-wise is what they did in Missoula, Montana, Missoula, Montana. Yeah. And so what they ended up seeing was a 50% positive exit rate to housing, which that's better than congregate shelters. So that's what got me turned on to this. I mean, the idea of a safe outdoor space is not a extra expense. It's a cost savings in the long run. [19:50] Wayne Mallar: When I guess what we need to know is what's the type of resident of the area in Montana. I mean, I think, well, let me clarify, what do we have for these areas on the east coast? There must be something besides, you know, everything we're talking about is the west. Their weather systems are different than ours. I'm sure the people have different approaches to things, so I think we need something more that's going on this side of the world as opposed to the western areas, and is, are there any encampments that are managed on the east coast, and if there aren't, why are we even looking at it? If it's, if the east coast hasn't, it hasn't proved to be a successful run, we're going to do it and find out all the problems. I mean, I just I'm confused I. [20:52] Carollynn Lear: Don't think I don't think that's a question for Jen and I. [20:57] Susan Hawes: Yeah, that's enough, Council Fish. You haven't spoken yet, and I apologize again for being [21:02] Carolyn Fish: right after we do it even early. So I thought today we were going to focus on the immediate issue and what our potential solutions. There's not going to be a perfect one, and I know that we've mentioned an ongoing conversation about not getting here again, sort of in a reactive responsive crisis mode. So I'm thinking before we get into long-term, because I've been doing some research too, and today might not be the place to kind of give my decision or my opinions about it. But so today I thought we were gonna focus on the issue a hand say see where we're at and sort of give perhaps a sanctioned spot for this issue and see how we can work with our partners and then take it from here. Because I've been very busy for a while but I think I'm starting to see some conclusions here and it's been rather eye-opening. But I don't know if today's the day but it's definitely to do with the housing the resources the time the history we've had of failures and in fact would have come to find by the 115 communities similar to our size in cold weather and they realized a long time ago they're not experts in the homeless and substance use addiction they partner with people who are. And when I look at the minutes of all time and energy and money we've spent being reactive and yet still failed yet when you look at the dollars and the time and the resources it's really quite unfair to the right thing to do and yet here we are many failed. And I think we need to admit we're not the experts and come up with a completely different strategy and I do not believe it's municipal uses of time and money and resources. And when I've spoken with other communities when I said again we haven't champions and homeless exist how we react and how we partner with the experts is really I think the difference of where we're at and where they're not. So I'm just going to put that on the table for now and focus at the issue we have at hand hope we can help these individuals and then we really need to talk about being smarter about this issue did [23:35] Michael Beck: you have something well it sounds like what's on the table I mean again for starters for me is we've gotta stop going for a deadline and start going for a goal. I'm just saying, it's closing the encampment. It didn't work out with Camp Hope. And I know that the argument's been like, well, it doesn't matter if you give more time. Yeah, actually it does, it makes a big difference. And the fact that this costs so much is because we just keep doing this Trident system of, well, we'll close it and they'll just magically disappear. And they're still here. They're Bangor residents, they belong here. You know, they're Bangor residents, you know, closing camps has never worked in Bangor, not once. Every time people go back to homelessness because they don't get the supports that come with the housing that they eventually get, if they get it, you know, even the vouchers now, they're keys to doors that don't exist, you know, but it's also a symbol, the fact that they're working hard to be housed. And I just can't pull the rug out from underneath them. Now, there's too much work to be done. There's more strategies that need to be implemented. December 19th is not a workable date. And I don't know about the rest of people's table, but I hate throwing away tax dollars. So to me, December 19th, if you have no problem, you know, spending money without any accountability, go for it. But for me, the fiscally responsible, if the morals don't get you, the purse strings should. The fiscally responsible thing to do is to delay this closure until we're ready to do it 100% correctly. Because again, you know, to the previous point is we're doing the same thing over and over and over again. Closures do not work. They never have worked. It's time to do something different. We need time to do a safe outdoor space that saves money. It saves money. I'd rather spend, you know, whether it's $50 a day per person. That's still a quarter of the cost of what it cost to try to help someone on the street and try to manage their street homelessness. So this is one of those rare instances where both the morals and the financials line up. And so it starts today with we put a hold on that close. Let's get this right, and let's keep, then let's talk about doing a safe outdoor space and figuring out a way to get that model right. And I agree, let's talk to experts. This was something that actually was raised in the region. Three homeless council this week, you know, and there was support for it. So there's, I, there's people in this state who will help us do it right. I know it. So, you know, for me, let's, let's start by just putting a pause on this closure date and circle back to how we're gonna, you know, do the safe outdoor space. I. [26:19] Wayne Mallar: Have a question. First, before we put a halt on anything, we have to know where we stand with the railroad. And does anyone know? [26:28] Carollynn Lear: I think the primary conversations that have happened with the railroad have been through their police force and hours, and they've been verbal conversations. I don't believe, although I can make eye contact with Chief Hathaway to confirm, that we've received anything official from them. Isn't that the first step? Well, I think if I could just sort of take a step back, if that's okay, and sort of summarize, I think the December 19th date was is and was very much driven by significant concerns with the safety in and around the train that was the catalyst for the really urgent conversation that we had two or three weeks ago on that topic when there were 47 seven people living there and there was no feasible way to sort of move folks within that space in a way that we thought could create a safe situation. Over the course of three weeks, things have significantly changed and in a really positive way fewer people are living in that space. And I think that there is a strong case that it would be prudent to evaluate whether there is a way to keep people in that space safely in a way that protects the safety of the individuals, as well as all of the public servants, including the public service organizations and the city staff that are responding to that space by moving folks from the railroad property over to the city's portion of the property, while at the same time continuing to do many and maybe more of the things that we're actively doing to transition those folks from living outside to living in a different place. We just haven't had the time as the numbers have fluctuated to truly evaluate whether that is a feasible option to shift, to ask people to voluntarily shift in such a way that it could be a bit safer in the interim. [28:42] Susan Hawes: That's sort of where I am and that would not alter their services they're currently getting if they do get moved feet and maybe it's not going to be a huge move they're still going to have the services we still would be able to have people down there and looking another issue you bring up that we're going to have to look at council is why are these doors locked in so many places for voucher people. You know, we're gonna have to start working with the landlord. And we've had these conversations in the past, we're gonna have to have them again. Because if they're vouchered, and they're approved to have a voucher for housing, we should have people willing to do that. If they're not willing to take a voucher, why not? And what can we do? And certainly we can have maybe a meeting with the, I know they have an association of landowners, homeowners that they rent, and find out what are the issues. And if we find it's destruction or something, maybe something we can do on that line as well to help mitigate the cost if that happened, if they gave someone a chance. Just other areas we have to look at, and we're not going to have a lot of time to really do that, but we've got to take the time and form a strategy that's going to work. And maybe despise time for the people that are down there. You had your hand up, yes, city manager, thanks for [30:19] Daniel Carson: clarifying again the beginning of your report. I wonder how much time you think it would take to make an assessment or to reassess the situation regarding thinking, because it is sounding like the changes that are positive are sort of leading us in that direction. Yeah. [30:42] Carollynn Lear: I'm going to say a number of days, and then I'll invite my team to disagree. Please, if you think more would be needed, but I would think, you know, maybe a week, 10 days to evaluate the space and whether folks could be moved in a safe fashion but still stay there. I'm seeing nods, not [31:03] Jen Gunderman: could I offer a suggestion? What I would want to do is to talk with the community partners in that space who've been working there day in and day out, as well as our own city staff, to get their input as well as part of that assessment, in addition to talking with individuals in that space. So I think that would take a little bit of time. So [31:27] Susan Hawes: you're saying you need a few things to talk to those people and then get back to us. Okay, before we leave, we need to make sure we have a meeting that we'll be talking about this, but not necessarily that issue. On Monday, we need to make sure we have a follow up to that, we can get back with people and come up with what you're hearing down there so we can make some informed decisions rather than just throw a ball and hope it lands where we want it to. [31:58] Michael Beck: Yes. I was just gonna throw one more suggestion. Again, the standing meeting happens every Tuesday with the residents of the camp and the leadership that they've selected. So I wanna make sure we should also be having that conversation as well. So the two meetings I've had so far have just been really productive. And also to put out there too is that they're also open to closing the camp. They just sort of asking, hey, can you give us time for the land to thaw, you know, and then let's, and also can you, can you give us an alternative with our input, you know? They want to work with us, so I want to make sure we're taking advantage of that because, you know, I'm a firm believer nothing about us without us, and you know, this is their lives we're talking about, and I'd like to have them to have more input. That's [32:43] Wayne Mallar: around in working with them. Excuse me, have what is their desire to assist us as far as storage, as far as trash, as far as waste? You have any recommendations from them? [33:02] Michael Beck: Yeah, so they'll work with us if we give them the tools, you know, if you regular, it's always if we [33:07] Wayne Mallar: we give them something? What are they that, what are they willing [33:11] Michael Beck: to do is my question, when you have nothing? How can you do [33:14] Wayne Mallar: anything? You won't even pick up trash? When they put in their pockets? What do you want them to do? Okay. The point being, I don't mind helping people. But if they don't want to be helped, I'm not anxious to help them. Wow. I'm sorry. [33:34] Susan Hawes: Okay, I'm just gonna go out on a limb here. I understand what you're saying. What are they willing to do? You mentioned earlier we give them tools, and the tools might be needle receptors, it might be trash bags, it might be things that they can take ownership of and take care of their own trash, pick up their own syringes, whatever. So that's what he's referring to. Are they willing to take part in keeping the encampment site clean [34:06] Michael Beck: and livable? And they're willing to do more. They're carpenters, they're electricians, they're trades people, you know. If they're willing to do it, 's it's just it's hard to do those things when you're in survival mode 24 7. That's the issue. We're at whereas we give them an opportunity to stabilize, they will contribute any way that they can. Jen, if you could ask that of your [34:31] Susan Hawes: your partners when you're getting a feel for what they're seeing down there, what they're hearing, just flat out ask what we just heard. And that can be part of the next discussion. Yes, Councilor Full. [34:45] Susan Faloon: So I had a conversation with Willie at Needlepoint Sanctuary yesterday, and he made a really good point about like, if you put some rules in place for these folks going in, so say we decide on an area either down there and we section it off, and he suggested sort of like making a grid, and they each have their own spot, sort of like a campsite. And there are rules in place going in so that you're not getting them there and then changing the rules partway through. And, you know, this is your space. You are responsible for cleaning it up and setting those expectations, like, right up front and you know and having those conversations ahead of time and getting that buy-in so that they're part of that solution that they're really more likely to help out and to abide by those kind of rules that are set in place in advance so just kind of throwing that up there and then you know like having all of those things you know the trash the restroom facilities the needle receptacles and probably like I don't know how these people are getting needle services now but that may be something that we want to consider like doing in that space as well that's good sorry I just I just want to have to [36:06] Jen Gunderman: do is that we parks and rec does have a large needle mystical in that space it was specifically put there to respond to the event I've actually seen people living in that space take a smaller receptacle clean up needles and go put it in that space so we do have one and that's regularly emptied I also want to let you know that where the train track space is it is walking distance to Wabanaki Public Health and Wellness which is the other SSP so that people have literally been able to walk up to that service so I just want to kind of put that context provide that information for you yeah and I think from [36:46] Carollynn Lear: from the perspective of sort of the rules, yes. Yes, and I think that the challenge with that is having someone present in that space 24-7 to help sort of actually ensure accountability to those rules. And I think that is where you could potentially see success hinge on whether there's a resource available in the space 24-7 of it to help the residents who want to ensure accountability to sort of the group because as with any community your community my community there are always folks who like the rules and others who are challenged to abide by them I think having that space and allowing [37:34] Susan Faloon: Them to be there would be contingent on them following certain rules, and they need to know that going in. And I think that they're going to be there, from what I understand, some more responsible folks in that group who can kind of take a leadership role in that. But it's, you know, it's kind of giving them some responsibility and some ownership of this too, that's [37:58] Susan Hawes: a lot, yes. [38:00] Angela Walker: I wanted to, you know, I definitely respect everyone's input, and thank you Jen for you actually answered all of my questions that I had. So that's very helpful. I was under the impression that this meeting is really to, like Carolyn was saying, to like get to the root of, are we closing it on the 19th? That's what, you know, as time is ticking here, like coming up with, no, that's not gonna happen, or yes, we're still gonna keep it at 19. I, speaking for myself, I am not in favor of closing it at 19. And when I think of our homeless population, and a date saying you have to be out of here is unacceptable. As a community, I all the emails and all the public comments that we've had surrounding this have taken into consideration also the businesses that are that are aligned down there that we don't talk, you know, that we hear, you know, the comments and the emails that are coming in and the traffic that's going on back there. But I also now I'm a little at more at ease hearing that like we went from 40 something people down to 20 people down there and the work that's being done by the PAC team the home team all of your resources. I also think in the future when we line up these meetings that perhaps we could have a representative from those. I know that you do a really excellent job relaying that, but it would be nice for us to see and hear them from them moving forward. I did my notes are so all over the place because you answered so many good questions. I did, you know, I'm saying no, we're not going to move you. I think springtime is a good time to really revisit that when it's the snow has melted and it's not freezing, letting them have breath like we're not gonna have to move. But I do understand, and when we had a meeting before I was like, oh, the rain that we were having, the snow that we're having to uproot their home, their tents and stuff is a lot of work. Someone said it earlier, like living in survival mode is really hard. They become very tired very quickly. It can, I also think that like when we had discussed maybe a water party down there, but you've had to answer a lot of Questions too about the needle being the needle box being there, a place for them to use the restroom. I will say that I work in this community and with a lot of the unhoused population, and I met with a couple people yesterday that are still currently there, and they, I think a lot of them are willing to be the percentage, the positivity of using the resources that are available, but at the same time I think they're tired, and I think that they just want to be left alone for a little bit, you know. That's their home. I was thinking about the trash and the cost and what does it look like, you know, coming up with a budget, but all in the future. Like we need to decide today what are we going to do. I'm going to stand and say I'm not in favor of closing it on the 19th or have a closing date. I think that is very fearful. I think that and that we're working on short-term, medium goals and long-term goals and longer-term goals, and we're all, we're constantly trying to do it in this amount of time that we have, and that's not realistic for us to have to work on all that right now. So what is it that we're looking at right now? If it means moving them a little bit to this side, you know, is a lot different than we're going to find all these different places for you to go in the city. That's not going to happen between before the 19th or before the snow melts. Like it's just not. We're at a place now where it's like, let's let them be, let's see if we can continue to work with them, work on the, you know, the businesses that are around them, what is it that we can do to make sure that people that are working in these businesses are getting safely to their cars or getting safety to the businesses, you know. I think there's a lot of moving parts, but I don't think that the house, the unhoused population are not wanting a solution, but they also want their home and they want to be safe. So thank you. [42:49] Susan Hawes: Whatever we do with the date today, it's going to be clearly, it sounds like there's a consensus it's not going to be the 19th, but that's not going to give us time set back and think, okay, come springtime we're going to do whatever. We still need to form that plan and keep that plan moving. And we do that with the assistance of your department and all of the departments are sitting in the front row right there. So that it's an ongoing thing. And this changes daily, you tell us the numbers change daily, and we've seen it. So we can't just say, Okay, we're going to change the date. And it's going to be this. So we've got a little breathing. We're not going to have that much breathing room. We need to keep our foot on the gas because this is gonna, it could develop somewhere else in the city, and we need to know how to handle those specific things. So we'll be working more on those and having more meetings and adding things to some committees as depending on what we finally decide today. So just that she had her hand, but my concern about putting the data out is similar to what [44:11] Carolyn Fish: once we sent the date out it seemed like the population grew it was almost like oh so this is okay and then i think that not just those that are in service but it almost attracted others that it was like okay the city allows the encampments and you can come from wherever and other towns will even say bangles couldn't encamp it so i'm i don't know how we can control we seem to have the numbers almost cut in half from last week and i'm afraid those numbers are going to grow and i also don't want to, you know, and again I know there's a lot of advocates, there's a lot of reasons, and everybody's saying that don't work, but this does and this will and research groups, there's no perfect answer. And I don't think leaving them there is perfect. And I don't think not doing it till the 19th is maybe, I don't know that it is the right answer and I don't know that it's not. And I don't think anybody can tell us and guarantee one is right and one's wrong. After the 19th, to me, it's, you know, they're still out in the cold in the dead of winter with the trains running. planning and that's that's in our staff and our employees have got to go down there in a dangerous situation. So if the majority and the experts say leaving them where they are, but I have grave concerns about how we're going to control that from growing, and it's not okay with me for other people or even individuals who just choose to throw up a tent and live outside. Yes, a lot have an issue, but some it's their choice of living, and that is an okay place for us to just say here's your space and As Councilor Mallar says, what are our liabilities and responsibilities for land we don't even own? No, so it's, it's tough to be on city council and see the homeless on our street and wonder how the heck they survive. I don't believe I could. I don't know if I could survive one night. On the other hand, when I look at the time and resources and I hear about a vet that committed suicide and I don't see the advocacy for them, the people that are home with illnesses and financial disabilities and the lady that's in the cold right now with 20 degrees temperatures, I don't see the accuracy and I don't see us spending the time and resources. And in fact, we don't have the time and resources. And for our governorship, as city council and a municipality, I don't know that it is. But I do think we need to learn how to partner with a more fair and balanced job for the citizens of all of Bangor. And I know we have a ton of people right now in crisis, life and death. Well, the gal that just died that has two children, and she had life and death and she didn't have a choice every morning when she woke up to change her behavior, her destiny to die was there for her. She had no thoughts. So yes, we need to help these people, but we need to come up with a plan that includes responsibility guidelines and what we can and what we can't do and start running the city as a municipality in business and somehow partner up with the people that are experts and have better results for the dollars and the times and the resources that are public works and all of us are spending on this issue. And I'm not heartless, it's just we have a lot of other citizens in their crisis too. And no matter what we do, we're going to always have homeless no matter what program, encampment, no encampment, all the calls and research I've been doing, homelessness is going to exist. It's how we respond to it that we have to improve on. That's okay, thank you. I am interested, Jen, [48:17] Daniel Carson: if you have a comprehensive list of outside of the city community partners who are actively engaged in these spaces and the types of work that they are doing, so that I can have a better idea of actually what resources are out there. I am in favor of delayed, especially if we're able to find out much safer than it was before, and certainly because the human consequences of doing that would be catastrophic, but I am certainly interested in hearing about the community partnership, council of care, house. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about a potential meeting schedule for us to keep on track with these conversations? [49:07] Susan Hawes: Well, we have a Monday. And we will have some sort of a draft of meeting times at that meeting. And that will give us time to look at the city manager's calendar and what our other meetings are that's already in there. So on Monday, we'll be able to at least at least put out a draft of dates to see if we can make it work we typically have the Thursdays or Wednesdays that we don't have meetings on unless it's a holiday that bumps us to Wednesday that I would assume we would pick one of those to start but we'll check calendars here at the end see what we can come up with yes okay just ask a clarifying [49:54] Jen Gunderman: question. I want to make sure that I got that asked correctly. So in the document that you have, there's a short list of sort of direct service providers who are in that space on a routine basis providing very specific direct services. There are also a number of organizations, some even represented here today, that are going into that space providing material needs, checking on people. Are you thinking of a comprehensive list of people who are in that space can you just describe exactly the type of organization I think like it's really easy for me [50:28] Daniel Carson: to see all the city partners that are out in that space I'm not aware of all of the various community organizations and the work that they are doing in that space that would be good to know who is there and what specifically they are doing because I think it'll help us to build our plan to know [50:46] Jen Gunderman: what's already out there and I just want to clarify for you that the city entities that are in that space right now is the BCAT team parks and rack and our city outreach but I will put together a more comprehensive lift and kind of their general goals not that you're busier [51:06] Michael Beck: sure I just wanted to throw out there that you know we're going to delay it which I hope we do I don't I just want to make sure that we're not leaving this is it going to be is it not going to be kind of that just creates more chaos that's not fair to the residents there and I just want to reiterate again during my conversations with them they too were in favor of the closure and they proposed the date of April 30th my thinking is that it's kind of a if we set the April 30th date today and we Use that for a deadline for us too, that we keep our foot on the gas, and we're going to talk, keep talking about this issue, and figure something out, that April 30th date, at least everyone knows this is not going to be forever, that there is going to be an end to this. In the meantime, we would have a solution before then, and we don't find ourselves in this spot again, or at least not in a way that we're having to reinvent the wheel again. [51:55] Susan Hawes: One thing I'd like to back up to was a comment, and I don't know who made it now, about, I guess what was, you the, how do we prevent a huge influx, is that area not posted right now for the people [52:11] Carollynn Lear: that are there with no new ones entering? It is posted, and my understanding of the purpose of a by name list is that you can use it to identify who's there and who's not. [52:27] Jen Gunderman: That's true, however, it would be a decision that would need to be made that only the people on the by name list are able to be there. We would need your direction on that because it will expand, and that is something the council needs to consider [52:47] Susan Hawes: because we've got it a manageable amount. I'm going to ask the chief, the two, the two chiefs actually, in a minute to come up and answer a few questions about what's going on down there, but we need to keep low numbers if we can, okay? You had your hand up, and then counseling, yeah. [53:09] Daniel Carson: Yeah, just a question about a number and the by name list. When we're looking at the safety of the space, is it possible to determine how many people that space can adequately accommodate so that we really have an idea of what? [53:28] Jen Gunderman: I think that will be a question for the departments to figure out. I'm not aware of any magic number of, so the space there, you've got a few things you need to consider. It's not just the active railroad track, it's also the water will start to heave the ice, you know, sometimes up the side, and then one of the things that I have recognized is the, I think I mentioned the high road above, so when the snow plow comes over, it's dumping snow on down below onto where the tracks are, so to find that sweet spot of far enough away from the railroad track, far enough away from not getting crushed by snow, I think that's something that there's, there's no data out there to suggest what's a safe place. I think that would be part of the assessment that would need to happen with many departments. [54:21] Susan Hawes: Okay, Council Flynn. [54:23] Susan Faloon: I just want to say regarding a deadline, like I have those same concerns that you have with it growing. So I think keeping track of those people, but there is actually research that having a deadline that either not having a deadline or having a deadline that's too far out can result in procrastination or lack of action. It's like, I don't have to do anything. And I think that's just human nature. I mean, if I don't have a deadline at work, I'm going to do the other things that do have deadlines first, right? So if you don't have something, so I do think we should move it because I think it's a little bit unrealistic at this point, but pushing it out too far to the end of April or not having one at all, I think is going to result in folks hunkering down and not proactively working on a more permanent solution. Just one second. [55:13] Susan Hawes: When we had the Valley Avenue, wasn't it there that they were, if they were engaged in the process and working with people and filling out paperwork, that was one of the criteria for them to stay there? [55:29] Jen Gunderman: So that was, I was not here for the Valley Ave. Others could speak to that. But for the Hope House encampment, that was part of the criteria that they would have to continue to be engaged. And we had to define what engagement meant. I think that can be challenging because engagement can vary day to day, but that was a strategy that was used. I know with Camp Hope, I'm sure other departments can speak to other [55:57] Susan Hawes: places, but your teams are probably using that still to some extent. The teams that are in there working with the people on a daily basis, they know who's engaged and who isn't. They do, and again, [56:09] Jen Gunderman: engagement is something that we would just want to have real lots of clarity on, because when you tell someone you have to leave a space because they're not engaged, they will say, yeah, but I talked to you this day, right? And that is engagement. So we would just want to make sure that we're really clear with the expectations of what engagement looks like. Right now the property [56:28] Susan Hawes: is posted. [56:31] Carolyn Fish: Likewise, I think I don't want to set it. Are they the April 30th or March 30th, or are doing 30? Because I think, you know, things may have not, may have not been done perfectly in Campos. We've learned a lot from camp out, but in another way, we seem to be not giving credit to the things that work well. And almost, and part of that I think was because there was a date. It encouraged the campers themselves willingly and not to kind of somehow internally muster the desire to get more involved. And I think that if they put out a date, if they're engaging, I want to be able to help incentivize, you know, incentivize them to continue to be engaged and not let that last. So I think we need to say, I think we're all in agreement. I'll make the time to come in. I think we all will. I can't make any meeting. I want to participate, but this has got to be an ongoing subject and even continuously assess what's going on down the line. But to set a date and forward sending it, that's what the majority feels. And it sounds like perhaps that's the right decision right now, but setting the group right now, no, I'd rather get continued updates, continued assessments, and see where we are along, simultaneously trying to continue the conversation about what our policies are or what our strategies are going to be about our homeless issue in general on the side [58:09] Susan Hawes: and another topic, you know, with maybe other people. Okay, can we hear from the two chiefs? So okay, that's all right. Can we pull a chair up, Tracy? Come on up. It would be really nice if the three of you who spent a great deal of time down there or know of things that are going on down there to give us your perspective of the conversation so far. If they are to remain there, move them back, is it doable? Is that a road we shouldn't travel at all? We're not the experts. We're just trying to figure something out to give those people a little sense of security as to what's going on. It's going to be today, next week, next month. But is it doable with what we're saying and the things you're seeing? [59:41] Speaker J (unidentified): I'll start with we have had conversations with the railroad, the law enforcement arm. They have concerns about the safety of the folks on site and the concerns with their staff, maintenance staff that work on the on the railroad tracks. They have indicated that they do not want folks to remain on their property. They wanted them they wanted us to seek better options for those folks. A week or so ago we spoke with the leadership at the railroad police and asked if we could hold until the 19th at that time that was the date that we were working with you to that we've had conversation with them as late as yesterday. They still are indicating they do not want folks on their property. They are very concerned about the safety of all involved. We also spoke with the director of the CSX environmental field services who has indicated that he will send a team to work alongside the city team to clean up the area when that happens. [1:00:44] Susan Hawes: So they want them off their property, moving them to the city-owned property in that area, which is away from the tracks, further back. What are your thoughts on that? [1:01:04] Speaker J (unidentified): I'll only give you experience, I don't, instead of opinions, I'll just provide you with our previous experiences from other campsites. And generally speaking when we have a date certain the folks that we engage and please know that we have been talking with everybody in that site it's not it we look down and put a sign up and left. We have been talking with everybody there, public health folks, our folks, the outreach folks. Another date certain most of the folks and previous experience have found better options and that seems to be occurring now. If we have a closure date of late spring our experience have been from the past is that the campsites will likely have a significantly higher number of participants than we currently have. That almost seems like a certainty again based on other sites, Cleveland Street and the site under the 395 overpass so [1:02:09] Speaker K (unidentified): Let me preface my comments by giving you a framing of where I'm at. My life exists in doom and gloom from the fire department and EMF side and we're always looking at the worst case scenario. So when I when I look at this I can certainly I can certainly understand the belief that there it's a safer environment. I would put forward based on my experiences that it's not a safer environment. It's a less there's less exposure to the environment because we reduce the number of people that are exposed to That environment, I think the risk is still there. I think the threat is still there, but having fewer people over there certainly reduces the likelihood of an occurrence. Like, I can, I can get behind that. The other thing that I think about, but when we talk about injury that's received, I think that's correct. I think that any displacement of these folks is going to cause some degree of mental stress or mental strain. That's incumbent of me to think about anytime we deal with somebody who has a medical crisis or is experiencing a loss due to fire or something along those lines. What I have to weigh that against is what that injury experience is versus the potential injury experience as we move into colder weathers and an active rail line and those things. And when I, when I measure the two right now, the injury that I see and I don't, this is probably going to sound like I am, I am downplaying it, but I really don't mean it, because I know it's a tangible and can occur as a physical presentation. It's more a matter of I'm going to say inconvenience, but that's almost not the right word to use. It's a matter of displacement. It's a matter of discomfort, if you will, to get these people moved into a different space or out of the space that they're in now. You're asking them to upheave their lives. When I weigh that against knowing what a train can do to a person or knowing what a cold weather injury, severe cold weather injury can do to a person. I have to look at the physical harm as a greater threat to the folks that live there than the psychological harm in its gravity. Understandably, that people are going to be upset. I get that. They don't wanna move. I understand all of that. But I know the results of, like I said, of those physical injuries that occur. occur. I also know our experience in the encampments where we have dealt with severe burns and other things that occur. And it's not because necessarily anybody's being negligent. It's just the fact of living in that environment mistakes happen. And I don't expect that this winter's experience will be any different than last winter's experience that we've heard. I will tell you that we are one of the few agencies that can stop a train by simply making a phone call, and we stop the train when we go down there. Anytime we operate within 50 feet of the train tracks, we stop the train. I would expect that as the weather gets colder and that as if what's predicted comes true, when more people move into that environment, our responses to that area are going to increase. We're the primary point of health care for a lot of those folks to be able to get into the emergency room because they don't have pcps or whatever and we love doing that 's part of our job but we know that operating that close to the rail line creates a risk so that means if we're running down there four or five times a day depending on what's happening that's four or five times we're going to call it railroad to shut the train down and that is that's something that's going to come back that the council is going to have to going to have to mitigate and manage so just something to put on your radar. I do not have an opinion on whether an encampment, a permanent encampment is established or not. I think there definitely needs to be supports. I think there definitely needs to be structures for these people. I feel like this is good intentions going awry by allowing them to stay in what is, from my perspective, based on my experience, a dangerous place for them to be in. I really think that as we get into the colder weathers, I know that there's substance abuse issues down there. I know there's lack of nutrition. I know colder weathers are coming. Those all inhibit our cognitive function or our ability to think clearly in certain circumstances, especially in potentially high consequence circumstances like being too close to the railroad tracks or whatever the case may be. When you combine that with the railroad tracks, facts are a thorough fear for moving among place or from place to place in addition to streets and roads and whatnot, it just, it makes me very scared for these people. I have a legitimate fear for their safety more than I do my own people because I can stop the train. We're gonna stop the train. We're not gonna have a problem there. I'm very concerned and generally concerned about them and their safety down there this winter, especially given the environment they're in with the ice coming up and the snow coming over when we plow and those types of things we have no way to provide overhead protection i have there's no way we're going to stop ice flow from coming in and damaging what few goods that they have i 'm worried about them my comments are based on fear for their safety and well-being something else to consider [1:07:57] Speaker J (unidentified): for us is access issues. This site does present some issues. Wednesday evening, early evening, we had a report of a cardiac arrest at the campsite, and we had a bit of a difficult time locating the person. First officer in could not locate the person. We sent several other officers down. We did find the person further up the railroad tracks. Paramedical quick to arrive, but we had to get them in as well. It's, it's a little more of a complicated site to respond to for medical emergencies than previous sites that we've had. We will always get to the person in the crisis. That does not matter where they are. We will find them. It's just the amount of time it takes us to get to the person based on the landscape of this particular site. Tracy will have Parks and Recreation Director first to just review. As Public Health Director shared with you, excuse me, our park rangers have been engaging at this site as well as some of the other sites, and what I would share with you is similar to what Police Chief Fire Chief and Public Health Director have shared with you as far as experience. I will tell you that within, City Manager mentioned as well, Public Health Director, we have a place receptacle down there for syringe waste. We have, through our engagement with our park rangers, done random trash pickups down there as well. That gets to be more of a challenge when it was at its height as far as previous experiences. I would share the same sentiment with you that the Police Chief has shared with you this discussion, the conditions, the scenario that we're seeing now, get a Penobscot Plaza along the tracks. It follows of similar experiences that we've had with other sites here over the years, starting at I-395, progressing to Cleveland Street, parallel to that, the experience we had on Valley Avenue back to Cleveland Street, and time and effort and resources that were committed to resolve that scenario. In the case of Valley Avenue, we were assisted for the first time by Housing Urban Development technical Assistance team which provided some good approaches for, we think good approaches for us, allowed us to engage those folks, and we were meeting regularly, engaging with those folks around, with many of the same organizations that you've heard about this morning. We, in addition, have tend to engage in some of the colder nights with our park rangers to ensure safety, and safety you've heard is certainly a paramount piece to why we're here today and the concerns of it. Our park rangers are here not saying that police officers and DCAT are hearing the same thing that the fire department is hearing. So our experience has been, as the police chief described to you previously, when we've traveled down this path of discussion. [1:11:18] Susan Hawes: Okay. Questions for Mr. [1:11:22] Michael Beck: Redd? Not so much a question, just a comment. I guess, because we will have this conversation again. There's going to be more encampments. Can we start having them in the summer instead of the winter that going forward let's start talking about these sooner because these campings are forming and we know they're forming but this last minute decision to sweep them we got to start thinking sooner I [1:11:46] Susan Hawes: suspect that will be on the proposed dates for meetings we might as well carry it through the summer I [1:12:00] Carolyn Fish: think council beck's right but I think we're responsible for public conversations. We have to have a plan, we have to better address this instead of react, we react. So you know, that problems on us. And listening to, you know, you know, when we respond to the emotional side that we want to, is helpful to meet our vulnerable people where they're at. Sometimes we have to make I think a tough decision. And when I hear the safety issue yeah they'd like to be there maybe emotionally psychologically you got to stay in their homes but after listening to this and hearing the railroad basically it's their land and they said the 19th is it I think we have to do all that we can so having with heard this I think I'm more engaged to say that I feel yours but if you consider the safety issues of life and death and the fact that the railroad owns property and they've given us the 19th it's the 19th we'll do the best we can okay [1:13:10] Michael Beck: Comments bring me a plan for everybody where they're going to go. We can do the best we can, right? And then the best we can right now is we need to, you know, work with them. We have conversation with them, you know, who's not at this table, the people who actually live in there. We're making a decision for people and say all of the risks here are very real and these are all risks they brought up. And you know what, here's the thing, they're not afraid of the trains, they're not afraid of the stone, they're going to deal with it. You know what they're afraid of, us, what we're going to do to them. They're afraid of us. And so I'm just, I would have been okay with the 19th if there was a solid plan in front of it and said we thought of it all, we got all the 19th strategy, we got all together here it isn't, right, here's the blueprint. We don't have a plan and we're going to just ship everyone off and guess what, we'll see in three months just like Jenna Jones told us in that email. I said those words were prophetic. We're here, we are again, just like she said. I 'm with you, Counselor Fish, we need a long-term strategy and we're working on it. I put throw over the for the draft for that housing committee because we do need experts to come talk to us about this. You know, we are going to work on it, but for right now I'm not willing to trade the potential for danger for the certainty of it. There will be certain danger to people, harm will be done to them if we do this. We gotta be, we gotta come up with a plan for right now and we're not, whatever the plan ends up ultimately being, we are not going to do it by [1:14:47] Susan Faloon: the 19th my understanding is that these folks are agreeable to the former can't hope location in that 's a possibility and it seems like we could probably do that fairly quickly and I think that we could section off an area know who's there, provide the grid that was suggested by Willie at Needlepoint Sanctuary so that they can easily be located in case of an emergency call. We put the rules in place. We have the trash, we have the restroom facilities, we have the needle receptacles and or needle services there and perhaps even bring someone in. I know that we've had some emails from some folks who are willing to just step in and help run it, but to me that seems like it could be a doable short-term solution [1:15:58] Carollynn Lear: If I might, I truly would recommend, and we can absolutely put together a budget for what we think that would take to do that in a way that was safe and humane for the residents who would be living there. But I just have to say, I don't think we have the capacity as a city with the resources we have at this second to manage that in a way that would be safe and ensure a safe and healthy outcome. I think you would have to have someone onsite paid 24 hours a day for safety and security and to help manage challenges, otherwise you're going to see a lot of people interested in taking advantage of the situation of those individuals who are in [1:16:48] Daniel Carson: Crisis. That's impressive. Yeah, thank you all of you for your efforts, and certainly the point about safety is well taken. They come from a railroad family, also understand what trains can do to a person. I'm wondering if your assessment changes. Does the assessment, the report that all of you just gave, is that for both the railroad property and the city portion of the property? Or does the assessment change in your mind when we talk about the city portion of the property? Is there any differences in each of your minds between where they are now and that space. [1:17:29] Carollynn Lear: I would say one, I think we'd want to comprehensively discuss that, but I'm very happy for Chief Lowe and Chief Hathaway to give you their initial thoughts. I think there's pretty comprehensive input. [1:17:44] Speaker J (unidentified): I don't, from a response model, I don't think it changes. [1:17:49] Speaker K (unidentified): I don't think anything, so from my perspective, being around the railroad tracks and living in that environment, that there's, I don't see that my assessment would change any. I would have to think that more [1:18:04] Speaker J (unidentified): I would go back to when we talked about our previous experiences and saying that I'll use Valley Avenue when we got the site of Valley Avenue to try and answer the question that goes back to what you've heard from Chief Hathaway and Chief Lowe about safety. In that case, it was the safety of pedestrians along Valley Avenue conflicting with traffic. Using that to their point about safety around the railroad, the same pedestrian traffic by no fault in the dark of night wandering on an active railroad that somebody didn't know was there or wasn't aware a train was coming. So it goes back to what we've already talked about here about safety. [1:18:57] Speaker K (unidentified): I'm sorry if I may. I don't want people to get pigeonholed into if just the train is going to hit you. There's a certain area around that train as it moves where you're in a snag zone. Or if for whatever reason some strapping has come loose, or there's a wooden plank that's hanging off the side or whatever, that extends out several feet. That's another, again, hypothetical, but that's, that's the world that I live in. They're all things that I consider when I send resources down or we look at and setting up things around rail lines. So any [1:19:42] Susan Hawes: other questions, comments? Thank you for your input. It's helpful. Thank you. [Daniel Carson: I] guess that brings us back to the main question of the day today we do have to resolve that it is as everybody has known the 19th was put in places right around corn so what 's your pleasure i mean we're we're not gonna make that deadline go ahead [1:20:33] Susan Faloon: We sort of act like we have an option here, but based on what I just heard, we really don't. So I don't think we can leave here without having at least a tentative plan for where these people [1:20:46] Daniel Carson: are going to go. We've [1:20:49] Susan Faloon: got a week. We're going to meet again Monday, but we have other business. We're going to have very short time. Like, I think we need to come up with even a super short-term plan that we know is not going to be perfect and [1:21:05] Daniel Carson: don't have time [1:21:07] Carollynn Lear: to sneak out the back door. [1:21:12] Susan Faloon: Tried hiding behind the canyon and [1:21:18] Susan Hawes: you're not really going to have the answer to this. We clearly can extend that date and we're going to have to, because the 19th is not going to be feasible. They are still going to be there, and even if we move them to the city piece, that's still not optimum either. You've heard law enforcement and fire EMS, parks and rec, they have their ambassadors down there. It's still not a safe site. Realistically, we're talking what, how many people, 20 people that we have to consider no matter what date we have of options available to them. One is many of them are voucher and do you work with a specific organization that will accept vouchers as far as landlords so there [1:22:25] Jen Gunderman: Are a number of landlords that we typically go to, whether it's with our rental assistance program or we have a constant services. Some of the challenges that you brought up are challenges that we see in placing people into housing. When they get a voucher, they may have an eviction history, they may have a criminal history. What we are seeing is that when people are placed into housing, there aren't the case management services necessarily available to help keep people stabilized and housed. So that often leads to bringing friends in because you want your friends to come in out of a cold as well. It leads to damages. It leads to evictions in a significant proportion of those situations. So therefore, landlords have become a little bit more hesitant. There are things that do help engage landlords, such as incentives, financial incentives. Whether that's saying that you'll pay for the damages or saying that you will provide a little bit more than the fee. So there are some strategies that have worked to engage landlords in a different way. [1:23:48] Susan Hawes: Hands everywhere. Council Carson and Council Beck. [1:23:51] Daniel Carson: Just want to remark, you know, what you just highlighted there is an immense failure in our plus care model. And that seems to have been going on for, cause I hear these stories pretty frequently. People get in, people bring friends in, places get destroyed. That's a failure in plus care. And so I think that as we develop our long-term strategy, we need to answer that question. [1:24:16] Michael Beck: What's your thing, just real quick. One option I would throw out there is possibly looking at a master leasing program. You know, take a little more of the risk out of the game like other communities are trying. And so that's something that we're talking about, but also regarding this day I'm fixated on what we're gonna do with the date. I'm hearing a lot of talk that it's gonna take time to reevaluate, so maybe now the goal today isn't to set the new date yet, but take the old day off the table, and then let's make that part of the next conversation. Okay, now that you've re-evaluated, what can we realistically achieve, what is our plan, and what can we achieve it by, and then have a date we can agree to, because I just, I don't want to leave people an alert over this, you know, they deserve to know, and I think that's the reasonable way to look at. We're gonna reevaluate, let's reevaluate, and then we can, you know, sit down and actually give a real date based on what we've, we've come up with, just one. [1:25:12] Susan Hawes: Second, no offense to your question, Jen. You work with these people all the time. You are in constant conversation with them. Is this gonna appear to them to be nothing more? I don't want to say that. Just say it. Is it going to be more? What service? [1:25:41] Jen Gunderman: First, I want to recognize this is so hard. So when I go back to what the evidence is, I do want to go back to something that comes from said, dates are important. Dates are important to keep people motivated. It's important to keep people engaged. Age, it's important for community organizations working in the space to be working towards a goal. Now I'm not saying anything about the 19th. I'm just talking about setting a date that is important part of this strategy. If you look at how things are done, you know, before Jenna left, she had great conversations with some leading experts, including some in Dallas, Texas. A date is important. I think there's a lot of questions with whatever we do with the date or with decisions that you make, because the next question is going to be who is allowed to be in that space until that date. And we can say, well, it's just the people on the by name list. What's challenging about that is there are a lot of day visitors in that space that can often stay over in that space to be with their friends, or it's dark, or they don't want to leave, right? So I think there'll be more questions. I think there's a question of the date, there's the question of who should be in that space until that date, and then there are like what are the other supporting services, like more trash or more conversations, what are the other strategies to bring into this space. What I can share with you is all the tools that we have, the resources for are in that space right now. There are absolutely other things we can do on the 19 strategies. And when I put this list together, it was not to say that we've been doing those 19 strategies comprehensively. It was more like this is the guidance that we've used and these are how we've aligned some of our activities. Activities, our resources are tapped out in that space right now. Well [1:27:52] Wayne Mallar: Still the biggest concern, if the railroad has said they want them out by the 19th, we have to go back to them and say we want to extend it. So we really don't know what we have a right to do yet. I mean, if they're there illegally and they want them out, I assume it's the responsibility of the local constabulary to get them out. We don't have anything to say about it, 's not our land. So I think we need to know where we stand specifically for extending the date with the [1:28:29] Speaker J (unidentified): railroad so [1:28:33] Carolyn Fish: What I mean, we don't go in and are able to find them housing or get them replaced, does the railroad have the ability or the authority to just go in and move them [1:28:49] Carollynn Lear: themselves? Yes. Do you want Chief Hathaway to talk about that? I mean, they have their own law enforcement. Yeah, so that could happen. I assume they wanted to call their law enforcement up and [1:29:04] Speaker J (unidentified): ask people to leave their property and they, yes, so they do have their own law enforcement division. They have authority, panel 23 in the state code provides an authority to enforce the rules and laws along their the corner of the way, so they could, yes. I think we can have continued dialogue with them. Jeremy Brock, who is the supervisor in our community outreach group, said very good conversations with the railroad leadership, both the environmental services group and the law enforcement group, and if you decide that the 19th, it seems like a date that's just not certain at this point. I'm confident that Jeremy can have further conversations with them. I don't want to speak for the railroad and indicate that they may well think that this is fine, but I do know that Jeremy's had very good conversations with him at this point. [1:29:55] Susan Hawes: Thank you. It would be prudent to have that conversation, I think, because the consensus appears that the 19th is not giving us any wiggle room or any time to find a place for 20 people. So if we could have that conversation and find out how far, what, how far are they going to push and how far, how hard is it to get them off their land, we can do that. Oh, it would seem that even though it's not ideal and I understand all the safety concerns, but if they're going to get booted off the railroad land, then we're not going to have a choice but to try to put them in our space down there, you know, on our land. At least they wouldn't have to be moved to wherever [Speaker J (unidentified): it] Seemed pretty clear when we talked about the Hope site before that was going to be way more resource laden than we have to deal with. And it does generate the risk of many more coming in from other communities. If we were to open that site again, it would be really difficult to fence it, block it, have people there to secure it. So we're dealing pretty much with one or two options. And the only one that's viable is probably changing the date and maybe I don't have any idea what we want to change it to but at least knowing that the 19th and maybe hearing the result of the conversation with your people that are in contact with the railroad would be helpful but in the background we're going to have to be thinking about potentially moving those people to the city the city area down there Tracy's going I mean that and it's not ideal we appreciate all of the comments so [1:32:09] Carollynn Lear: Maybe today the answer is we're pausing on the December 19th date maybe we'll have some additional information on Monday that will make we'll be meeting again council comfortable with selecting a future date I mean I think what we heard from Jen is that it's an evidence informed strategy to have a goal date in mind so it seems like that's probably a good thing to not just say right the 19th is off the table and leave it open-ended too long I [1:32:46] Susan Faloon: Think maybe the railroad people should suggest a date that's acceptable to them and that way we [1:32:51] Carollynn Lear: Know what we have to work with we can certainly solicit that from them and they may but until we [1:32:58] Susan Hawes: We really hear from them? Because they do have legal rights that we don't have on that piece. Chancellor Carson? [1:33:07] Daniel Carson: Yeah, with the city space, I just want to sort of re-say that I think it would be really helpful in the assessment to understand, and I know it's not safe, and it's not ideal, and it's not perfect. But I would like to hear a number that space can accommodate because I think you mentioned the challenges if we have people who are there both day and at night it's important that those people get to get first you know priority in that space because they're there then you mentioned that there's also a population maybe that they're storing things there whatever they're not there permanently but they're coming during the day you know clearly they may need access to but in an effort to prevent Right, us opening a space and then prevent it from just becoming, you know, it would be nice to know what it can reasonably accommodate, which I know is a difficult question because I'm asking a question it's not based in like safety or anything like that, but we can always batter it around. I'm sorry. [1:34:11] Susan Faloon: She's not going to sit by me anymore. Yes, Jen, can you please remind me, so the 20 folks, is there not space for them at the warming shelters or they don't want to go for some reason? Here is. [1:34:23] Jen Gunderman: Is room at warming shelters at this time. I think there's many reasons to not go to the warming shelters. Some people who have vouchers, logistically, it may not make sense to pick up all your stuff to go to a warming shelter and then hopefully get housed. For some people, warming shelters pose some challenges of being in that type of congregate space. We are hearing from the warming centers that they are dealing with complexities, capacities in those spaces as well. So if someone said today I need a space tonight, there's a space tonight. And I just want to make a thought about the grid. That makes sense conceptually, but what we see is because we can't have this be a 24-7 site, when people go down, outreach workers go down to the space to go through the by name list. Now, remember, they're getting that by name list of the people that they're seeing on a regular basis when they're down there. So they could encounter somebody who says, well, I've always been down here. You just haven't been here when I've been here. So if you grid off, there would be no way to enforce that only the people who are assigned to that grid can be in that grid. So I just want to introduce with some of the challenges with that type of a system could be. [1:35:54] Michael Beck: With that issue, one of the ways that gets overcome is that when it comes to when it comes time to guidance and rules, it's also got to be the input of the people there. They're the ones who need to come up with the rules because like that was one of the subjects that came up and the rules I'm hearing from this leadership who lived there are the same rules I would impose. And the thing that they impressed upon me is that if we build it, we will respect it. And that's, that's the key, if we build it, we will respect it. And then the thing I was going to add is that as we go through this process, I would like to see more of our efforts, communication be more collaborative with the folks rather just informative, you know, because they have a lot of good ideas. These have been really good meetings on Tuesday, and you know, and again, they were also in favor of closing the railroad encampment. It just worked with us on the date is where they're around. [1:36:46] Carollynn Lear: So I think we have our direction as far as next steps for the information that we'll bring to you on Monday. I do have one more item I would like to discuss. And I think this conversation really exemplifies why I want to discuss it. I feel pretty struggling that we need to go forward with hiring a new homeless response coordinator. And I'm seeing aggressive head nodding. The number of things that Jen is ignoring right now on her plate to full-time pay attention to this issue is not sustainable. And so I think our plan is to post that position and start recruiting for someone. I think the challenge with that recruitment is going to be that the funding ends for that position at the end of 2026, and we will need to incorporate that funding into our operating budget if we believe that position should go forward. And I'll give you my unvarnished opinion on that. I don't see a future where we don't need someone who owns this issue going forward. My hope is that we do a really robust strategic plan in, and we're going to need someone to implement that strategic plan. Sorry, I get I'm sorry, I just called on Counselor Carson and messed up. I tried to be answering. Thank you. I when this topic [1:38:25] Daniel Carson: came up before, I was, my sorry, my thinking has evolved on this. When this came up before, I think I was sort of in the camp that it would be great for us to have a defined strategy around what that position is supposed to do before we actually go out and find that person. I've completely changed my mind. I think that to build a strategic plan, we actually need that person, right? So [1:38:50] Carolyn Fish: For what that's worth, I agree too. I think our plan needs to, as importantly, create the limits and strategies of what we can and what we cannot. It's going to be just as important to start having some limits on our time, resources, and like we just took 120,000 out of GA to respond to an emergency situation, and that could have gone toward a response where if the situation had better planned out, that might have saved 120 coming out of GA. So, yeah, I agree that we need this person sooner than later. And I also think that we, that as a strategy, we have to learn that is as much as this vulnerable community has all of their issues and their wants and their needs. I think we also have to learn, we can't bend the knee to everything. A lot of responsibility of the decision where they are in the future, they have to get to a place where they have to start wanting to make the change no matter how much we do and how much we give until they get to that point we will not save these individuals. But we have to start putting some guidelines in the strategic plan about what we can do, get better organized, work better with the experts that are in the field, and let them lead with the advice and perhaps guidance of this without any involvement so we can get our act together. So the sooner the better because I think that role would be instrumental in helping us with the rest of figuring this out. [1:40:29] Susan Faloon: There you go, yes, I agree with all of that, and I want to thank Jen for all her work, and I'm very concerned that she's going to get burned out, and she's way too valuable to lose. [1:40:42] Carolyn Fish: I have to tell you every time I'm at my office, I don't know if the timing's just there, but I see you in those cold days, the wind was blowing and I could barely get from my car to the office door, I saw you walking down the track, and I knew how she does it. Thank you, Jen, great. [1:41:02] Daniel Carson: Anything else? Yes, I just want to make myself available either, I know you mentioned that there's those standing meetings on Tuesdays, it'd be great to be invited to one of those, and as public safety folks are going down and looking at spaces, I'm available to, for the city manager, I'm available to call and do that. Please include me. I was just going to say real [1:41:27] Michael Beck: quick is it's open invite, yep, and from a full logistical standpoint, yeah, I mean, I have no problem stepping back to make sure everyone gets an opportunity because it is important for us all to hear the input, so you know that's great. I just wanted to add that I am also meeting but that date [1:41:45] Susan Faloon: Didn't the Tuesday doesn't work for me, so Monday the 22nd I'm meeting at 2 30, so like if I know we gotta kind of limit the number of folks, but that's another option and have three, yeah. [1:42:01] Jen Gunderman: Can I just offer something to that conversation? Is the well is opening on December 19th, and the well is a day space where in the past a lot of people have gone. Outreach goes to that space. Our city outreach goes to that space. I've had conversations with our cities, some of our other staff in our health promotion way about going to that space more often just to engage in conversations, not a formalized group, but to be there, not just to provide services, but to just sit and listen and ask questions. So we'll also make sure that when we're formulating information that we'll share back. [1:42:42] Susan Hawes: And if you get to attend a meeting, we can ask others that might be interested because there'd be two of you that would be going. And then as long as we don't go over, it's valuable to hear back. It's on a day that I personally don't call because I'm working on that day, [1:43:03] Daniel Carson: but maybe two of those days a month I have to pick up Scott County, but there's other, I mean, but it doesn't even in Tuesdays you're going down there, it's other things, others call, yeah, just call me so [1:43:22] Susan Hawes: we'll have more information on Monday. [1:43:26] Carollynn Lear: Hopefully a firm date at least by the railroad, right, if I hear that from that, I don't know that by Monday we would have like a comprehensive sort of firm idea of the feasibility of that site, but I would think that we could at least go down and sort of give a rough sort of we think this is enough for five people or you know that sort of thing with more research to follow it [1:43:54] Susan Hawes: but that would be that the one thing and we are we're pausing the 19th Monday we'll hear from hopefully the railroad and maybe a site visit so is there anything else we're going up we're coming on two hours and I know a lot of you are have other things and work to get back to so we're going to meet again on Monday and we'll continue the discussions until we have some really solid plan items in place that we can start formulating a larger plan so make notes as you think about this over the weekend or whatever bring it back on Monday we can go from there thank you all for attending yes just a quick [1:44:45] Susan Faloon: Thought I haven't seen that. I don't know if the agenda has drawn out yet, but to say if there are any like updates or anything that aren't pressing that we could give up to dedicate more time to this, that might be, I don't know if we can step up. I feel like we never have enough time to talk about this subject. We always run out of time and we may, but we still have to put on [1:45:12] Susan Hawes: another hat and at least get our committees done as well, because that's business of the city. It's [1:45:18] Susan Faloon: committees. Yeah, no, I just meant like if there were any updates that weren't like pressing, [1:45:22] Susan Hawes: if somebody, if for some reason there's not a committee meeting that time, there would be some extra time there, but we can't really start not having the committee meetings because that affects everybody's departments and then we're way behind the heat law. So right now it doesn't look like it will be back to get some time in for what we have on the list of this to talk about. So yeah, and just [1:45:49] Carollynn Lear: as a reminder, there are four committee meetings scheduled for Monday, because we're having a special gov ops meeting where this will be discussed, the bus fair study will be discussed, and we will talk about the zoom policy and preparation for the January first deadline that council gave us. So I guess manage expectations about the length of that meeting, because none of those topics are unimportant or, well, we know which committee will be last. Yes, that's right, gov will be last on the list. Bring your slippers. [1:46:31] Michael Beck: I just wanted to offer thanks to the chair for all of us being together on Friday, number one, and thanks to all my fellow counselors for making the time to be here this morning. This is definitely unorthodox but important. Thank you to the staff who took time out of your regular duties to also make time to be here. I appreciate everybody for this conversation. All right, [1:46:54] Susan Hawes: well, thank you for that. We will adjourn at 10 to 45.