Bangor council backs day-space RFP, weighs park police detail

[0:23] Susan Hawes: You're alive. Good evening, welcome to the city council workshop. It's Monday, April 27th, that is 5 15. We are in council chambers around the table. We have city manager Lear, we have Councillor Deane, Council Carson, Council Walker, Council Flew, welcome back Counselor Beck, Council Leonard, Councillor Fish, and I am Councillor Sue Hoss. We have four items on the agenda. One is, the last item is an executive session, so we will be going into session before that. First up is city manager's [0:59] Carollynn Lear: update. City manager: All right, so just a few updates. I wanted you to put on your calendar under a hold for May 30th. We're tentatively scheduling the Calvick Trail in a naked ceremony for that day. It is a Saturday. More information will come, but I wanted to sort of hold that date and also proactively let us know if there's something we're not thinking of that might conflict with that. But that was a date that was suggested by the Calvick family. I wanted to give some positive kudos to Tracy and his team for another successful escape new race which went off without a pitch two weeks ago with good weather and enough water to traverse the river, which is good. There were 882 paddlers, 461 boats, paddlers from all six New England states, paddlers from Maine to Alaska. We had four from Canada. The event itself was supported by 60 to 70 search and rescue volunteers all along the river, as well as approximately a dozen volunteers from the Pine State Radio Club at checkpoints all along, and then of course city public works, police, and fire were all there to support the event. And I was surmising as I was drafting down these talking points that probably every dozen donuts from here to condescape was kept busy that morning as 900 or so paddlers were driving for their recruiting start, so a good event two weekends ago. The next item on my list is the council guidelines policy. So over the course of the last several months various counselors have reached out to me with suggestions for additions or changes to the council guideline policy, and I'm probably pretty close either at this or the next govops meeting to queuing up that discussion, but I thought it made sense first to just say aloud that we were going to do that in case there are other things that you've been holding on to as potential suggested edits or additions to that policy. You could add them to the list for that discussion, so I'll give a couple weeks for folks if you want to think about it, but then I'll put it on the agenda for [Daniel Carson: discussion and] Then the last item on my list is just an update on the sidewalk ordinance. So as you'll recall, I think it was at the last council meeting we discussed a city staff recommended sidewalk ordinance that was ultimately referred to the acre committee. Acre will be considering that ordinance tomorrow. Provided them with a copy of the ordinance as well as a copy of the memo you all received from the downtown Bengal Partnership, gosh I think it was last fall, as well as some, a copy of some policies that sort of impact the discussion. We've also invited Betsy Lundy from the downtown park and treat from the library to participate in that discussion. So once that happens we'll, I'm probably counselor back, we'll bring back the, as the liaison, sort of a discussion about that also before [4:52] Susan Hawes: you move on to your number two council mailer. I must apologize, you are very tiny up there on the screen. I forgot you were in there, so we can hear you. We will make sure that you are included in the voting. [5:16] Carollynn Lear: So the next item on the list is you have a memo in your packet titled City Park Operations and Day Space. So certainly in the last several weeks, I think we can all notice that the warming shelters and the day space operated by the well have closed. Lots of our unhoused neighbors are now spending their days and nights outside, and I think for many of our constituents who have been emailing us somewhat regularly about the topic, sort of a flash point for noticing that is here's our right out front and next to the library. Certainly city staff notice it, I notice it, I look out my window several times a day to sort of scope out what's happening, and I think we can all agree that is not what we want for our community, for our community to have a substantial unhoused population needing a place to spend their day and that place being for that. City staff, you know, Chief Hathaway, Tracy, Jen Gunnerman, myself, others have spent a tremendous amount of time and energy talking about this topic over the course of the last several weeks and really trying to navigate what is the right way to address the challenge in a way that sort of balances the full spectrum of our community's needs, and it's frankly been a challenging situation to navigate. Certainly, within the parks themselves, we don't have full-time staff currently in parks monitoring behaviors. And so when activities happen in parks that undoubtedly violate the ordinance in some form or fashion, be it by having sharp objects, by leaving trash, by using substances, or by setting up structures, we rely on primarily our PD with support from our Parks and Rec Department park rangers to observe those activities. The first part of my memo explains that I'm proposing that with Chief have to wait to support we staff gain police detail for so long as we need it to solely monitor park activities, particularly in parks where we are observing behaviors that violate various city ordinances. So certainly to begin that would be primarily Gears Park. In the memo that you have, you will see that there is a cost to have a police officer detailed to the park during open hours. That cost is in the neighborhood of up to $600, $180 I believe is the amount, although that would largely depend on the level of security of the officer that takes the detail. The other thing that we're proposing to try to manage the cost is to possibly reduce open hours of parks. So currently most of our parks are open from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m., but we're considering, you know, on either end reducing hours so that in those parks where we feel like there needs to be monitoring by police, we are limiting the cost. If we were to reduce hours, we would post it pretty prominently in the park as well as on our website and on Facebook and all of those places where people would hopefully see it. I think the challenge is that we're really trying to preserve access to our public spaces for everyone, and in many instances that everyone does in fact include our unhoused neighbors, who are certainly permitted to be in our parks, while at the same time maintaining a level of safety and comfort for others who would like to use those spaces as well and currently feel like they aren't safe to utilize. So with that, I will pause before moving on to the next item. Questions? I [10:26] Susan Deane: have one suggestion. We have not come up with this yet, but if we are going to ask our friends to move on from the park, I really need to tell them a safe space that they can go to, because they're just going to look down the street and something else is going to become a problem for others. I don't disagree. I will say I don't know that what we're [10:46] Carollynn Lear: Considering is necessarily telling our neighbors to move on. I hope that what we're doing is saying you're welcome to stay here, but you can't do this behavior because it violates importance. And in the best case scenario, folks say okay, understood, I will no longer engage in that behavior. But I think item two, I hope at least in part, will address the where can we tell folks that they can be other questions. No. [11:21] Daniel Carson: That's a lot of it one assigned to this or they're being like on ship so it [11:34] Carollynn Lear: would be one at a time. Yeah, shift that comes on during that time but sort of solely focused on arts which is the behavior is, you know, it's various things. I mean, I sit at my window and I can see people using substances. I mean, that is, that is happening in Pierce Park. I can see people throwing trash on the lawn. I can see people using the bathroom. Those are the types of behaviors that I think are clearly not permitted in the park. [12:13] Daniel Carson: and then we could discuss the days based on the second idea to potentially reduce hours with the vision that 's temporary and is it also just to the parks that we're noticing that because i've always appreciated yeah the length of time that [12:37] Carollynn Lear: we're able to have our parks. Yes to both. Yes to it being temporary and yes to it being focused on, like it was truly just a mechanism to sort of try to contain the cost of it because it will be expensive to have a detailed officer sort of circulating those parts where we feel like [12:57] Susan Faloon: they're needed. Absolutely. So the detailed officer, is that person going to be reassigned from somewhere else or is it going to be added hours? This is added and that's why there's a cost [13:12] Carollynn Lear: because we're not taking someone off an existing tail and assigning them to the parks. It's a true additional shift and it will be a volunteer by volunteer basis for folks to fill that shift. [13:27] Michael Beck: Is the $680, is that considering current hours or would that be $680 after we reduce hours? It's rough. I'm gonna look [13:37] Carollynn Lear: to after, it's after, and that assumes a pretty senior officer. That's why I said as much as presumably in many instances unless senior officer will volunteer. And the follow-up that [13:50] Michael Beck: would be, do you already have hours in mind that you would set the new opening close? No other than [13:56] Carollynn Lear: To say that it would likely be, I think, I guess I'll backtrack. I won't say no for Pierce Park specifically. We've talked about aligning it with the library's hours, and in any event it would really be a reduction on either end, so it wouldn't be, you know, we're going to close the park midday from 11 to 3. It would just be to shorten it on either end based on usage to try to limit the cost the [Susan Hawes: Questions all] Right, so I'll move on to part two of my memo, which is to sort of kick off a discussion about the possibility of having a bit of an expedited conversation about day space in speaking with the senior leadership team as well as folks who sort of serve this population within the city. I've heard time and time again that everyone misses the Heart Center and that it was really beneficial for both the city as well as for our unhoused neighbors to have a place to go during the day, both to be cool in the summer, but to also for there to be sort of a central location where service providers, case managers, healthcare providers could all go to sort of meet clients, know generally where they were going to be, not have to search for them. And so we were planning on having a conversation with council as part of the budget process to gauge council's interest in exploring ways that we might be able as a city to help support some sort of day space, but given the timing of the closure of the warming centers and sort of navigating some of the challenges within our parks, we wanted to gauge your interest in having that conversation sooner. I think we do have sort of a process that worked reasonably well when we had, for lack of a better term, an RFP process for warming changes. We had available funds and we asked the provider community to submit proposals. We think that could be a viable way to tackle this if you have a level of interest in exploring it. I think I would want to make sure that we were all starting with the same baseline understanding, that what we're talking about is spending money and it is probably more money than what we spent when we supported warming shelters this winter, and the reason I say that is because, right, and I'm out of my depth in this topic a little bit, my understanding is how warming shelters operate is primarily through volunteers and folks are willing to volunteer their overnights to help those operations if We're talking a day center. It is probably much more staffed with employed individuals, which is a great thing, I think, in some ways, because you're going to have folks who are qualified and trained to serve this population. But it most certainly would increase the costs, and I don't know that we truly know what that cost would wind up being until we go out to the provider community and say, what's your capacity to do this work, and how much would it cost? But I would anticipate it being more than the warming shelters. [17:54] Carolyn Fish: Also, fish, I think when we're putting the committee together, the homeless advisory committee, this would be very tough. You know, we have an urgent problem today, and you know, so again, we're reacting instead of having a plan. And you know, we, I think we do have to come up with something, but I would hate to see a long-term perpetual financial commitment when we should be partners and allow the experts to kind of organize. I'm hoping through this committee we can have a more collaborative, organized effort so we're not so fragmented, because again, this will be a fragmented amount of money for our fragmented issue that's on the table today, and it just seems like we keep putting band-aids on it. So I see the need in the conversation today, but I don't see the homeless issue being resolved today or tomorrow for this fix, and I really am concerned that I wouldn't want to see an obligation of this city because it's not our expertise, but we do have a responsibility participating in the welfare fear of the unhoused and how we can better manage it. So I'm interested to see what ideas we can come up with. I'm hesitant to make anything permanent, and I'm really hoping that through the committee they can help advise us where we can be partners and better collaborate and share the resources we have for better experience for everybody. [19:32] Carollynn Lear: I [19:36] Joseph Leonard: think the sooner we can get on a conversation about a safe space, the better that we're going to set up the homeless committee for success. I think having a space that we already do the hard work on saying this is where it's going to be located, and then they can guide how they want to run that space. I would rather get started on that work right now as opposed to waiting for the committee to be formed. We can have those hard conversations. In fact, we've already had those hard conversations already with some sites that were to us. And just to follow up on some of Councillor Fischer's words, there are a lot of citizens that are coming to me that are of the mindset of treat people that are on the poverty spectrum, treat them with rehabilitation, that are also saying we need to be action oriented with this problem, right? And this problem, it's just not going to go away. It's like this is a problem that is unfortunately going to be, I think, permanent in the city. I just don't see how this goes away anytime soon. In fact, the heart center was already heavily used even before we had this crisis on our hands. So I think we shouldn't be afraid about what the costs are right now to tackle this problem, because what we should remind ourselves of is that, and I will repeat this again, and I will continue repeating this over and over again, economically speaking, homelessness is very expensive. A single person who is homeless can sometimes run an emergency bill up to seven figures when they go to the hospital annually. So I just, I don't see how we don't, in the aggregate, to actually save money from investing time and effort into mitigating a lot of these problems and also reducing the amount of staff time that goes into this problem. I mean, how long has this council been talking about this issue? This is since before I got on and we're still in the same rut. We've been sweeping up encampments for years now. I think that needs to end. And that's also expensive, sweeping up camps. So I think we need to set up our homeless committee for success. We should establish a safe space, let them come up with how the safe space is going to be run, how they want that to be effective and executed, because we clearly have been incapable of fixing this problem. Them, I think the best thing that we can do right now is give them the reins and the area of where to work with in the safe space. So I'm all on board, let's have this conversation as well as possible. I know it's in budget season, but this is just as important as the budget. [22:59] Daniel Carson: Thank you, Manager Lear. I would be interested in exploring this question. I'd be interested to know how that put out what it might cost. I think it's difficult to ask people to go somewhere when they don't have a place to go. And so then I think about that sort of a cycle and how that can hurt people, right? If they have nowhere to go and we're asking them to go and there's behaviors that they're engaging in, some of which are legally dubious, right? There's a process there. There. And that also can impact the ability to recover and to be able to engage, you know, where they are. I hesitate for us, until we have a homeless committee gathered together to ordain some sort of a process, because I think that's exactly the point of why we're doing that. But the facts I mean, if we're approaching summer, we know that there's usually a spike in the summer we see more presence I mean the closing of the warming shelters but we do usually see more people coming into the community in the warmer months and so that's also going to create I think some complexities with the vision here of being able to enforce things at the park and so I would be interested in exploring what that could look like I'm sure welcome I know that it's time sensitive kind of. In a in a way because the warming centers have closed I do think there's a lot of I think that if you're able to get the parks under control that would be that would help I also think that the day space reading the emails that have come in about the community sending in emails in regard for data and what does that look like to me it kind of feels like to have it somewhere already existing space so that would mean agencies organizations that are in the area that are that have already taken on. Some of these issues or things in the past or whatever because in the emails we have gotten suggestions for that and what that looks like I am in support of that but I also am in support of a committee that we're trying to build and what do they have to say and can they help us in trying to get this space it's so hard to say we're going to move people from this and give them this opportunity but you have to do this but you can't do that and you know people are going to be in English all around. Whether you choose to go here, whether we choose to go there, we're spending money or we're not, we're not being empathetic or we are. But the thing is, I agree with Counselor Leonard. Like, this is, this is what it is, and we need to do it's going, it's not going to go away. This topic isn't going to go away. This topic is going to be here. What can we do that I wish, but I am interested to see what our advisory committee, how it's formed, who's on it, the people that know this much better than itself even. Like even with lived experience looking at it from this side, it's like I'm interested to see how that would work, but I definitely think that it should already be something that's already existing space so that we're not starting from scratch, getting a building in, getting people to be there, getting this, and we've gotten emails about different places. I know I'm repeating myself, but I just feel strongly about this issues. [27:03] Michael Beck: Further question then follows the picture. I understand what we're talking about here is day space, not safe outdoor space. This is actually just for the daytime only. So my follow-up that I guess is one is, you know, when it comes to dealing with this issue, as we all know, it's not a either or, it's always an and. This would be another option to help folks that it would work for a lot of folks, and talking to the people myself at Sears Park, a lot of people there say, hey, I'm here because the warming. Center is closed. I have, you know, I would rather be back at the center, you know, so they would be real happy to see this. I'm still left with a question about what happens at night, you know, because they gotta be somewhere. I mean, everyone needs a place to sleep, which is why I'm still in favor of doing a safe outdoor space, but I hear of anyone saying I agree with what's the point of bringing the experts together if we're not going to wait for the experts to actually weigh on this issue. To that end. What I, you know, in that ordinance we, I think we gave them what, a year to come up with a plan, and what I would recommend is that we actually go back and amend that ordinance to give front load a new task. We need a stabilization plan in the short term. Something to get us through at least especially before winter. But I mean, I would like their opinion on this and whether they think a safe outdoor space is an option in the short term. Because again, I see all of these things as temporary and short term. I don't want us to be in this perpetual cycle. I mean, I'd love to see us better coordinate with Hub 7, have them come in and bring us Built for Zero, which to me is still a great program that I think that, you know, we need to make sure is implemented and helping us reach functional zero. So I'm all for having this conversation, but I also, part of that too is have a conversation of what do we do to put an expedited task in front of that committee for a stabilization plan in the short term. Because you know I know staff is doing the best they can and they can only do with what they have and what the ordinances are and what's available to them and so they're also on the front lines and bearing the brunt while we go through this bureaucratic process so whatever we can do to speed up the decision-making process in a thoughtful way I'm in favor of [29:25] Carolyn Fish: Also fish also I would like to see you know some direction even if we come up with something temporary some direction and guidance for our police or however we're putting the money in I'd like to have the expectation of what we want to see for results so just you know handing the money out I know there's a website out there 's I got a call today that there's a town that were on their website send them to Bangor and people are getting off the bus every day now that weather's changed so if we're Going to put an investment in and we're putting a task force and we're thinking about actually creating a budget where we as a city are going to be contributing to this I think it's really important to know what our communications and accountability and responsibility and limitations that we would want to impose and you know we already have local communities and people coming from the southern and northern and from all you know all states you know I got a call the other day that someone was Trespassed and they just got off the bus from South Carolina so we you know as much as we want to take care of our own you know there's only so many life jackets we have before the whole boat sinks and I think we have to have some accountability, including the people themselves that we're helping. With the experts from our homeless committee, hopefully we can get some guidance for them. But if those want to be unhoused and they want to live, we had French toast say himself, I want to live on the street. So I think we have to have our limits, our expectations, and consequences outlined to help our police, our parks, and even ourselves. So I'm hoping that comes from the committee as well. All [31:21] Carollynn Lear: Right. So I think really the guidance that I am looking for is, would you like staff to do anything now to try to, you know, kick off a process to gather proposals for day space? Space, or do we want to really allow the advisory committee to own that conversation? And then I think as a follow-up, if the answer is we really want the advisory committee to own that conversation, are we interested in sort of changing their charge to focus them on a near-term solution, and then have them do the more comprehensive? [32:08] Susan Deane: Well, I think we could almost do a little bit of both. If we started taking our fees, why couldn't we just turn them over to the advisory committee and tell them this is your first task? I don't even know if we need to change the ordinance. I mean, this is what we were tasked them to do, the immediate need, and they have some far-reaching goals, but this is the first one. By the time it all comes in, we might have this committee together and they might have some wonderful ideas. [32:34] Daniel Carson: Is Mr Carson I would be in I'm not opposed to that committee owning this conversation once it gets up and running you would be concerned about waiting entirely until it's like I'm thinking about right we're going to meet on this tomorrow and Saturday and next week and so when does that committee actually right when is it fully put together and then when does it have an inaugural meeting and certainly at that meeting they're not going to have a plan right they're gonna be receiving the question That we're saying yeah and they're gonna receive what we're referring to that and so I'm thinking like if they fully own that from scratch we're looking at midsummer before we hear anything about a day space and by the time we've heard about a day space we'll be pretty behind because winter's coming so [33:35] Michael Beck: Back in the council locker I'm in favor of having the conversation I mean we can do both talk about the day space but also you know again we can get back to what we've been changed with the ordinance for the committee to task them with hey with our stabilization plan so I think we can have a conversation about both but also I guess two in that conversation is for staff to come to us and really paint the picture for why this is we know why I see but just to really understand the gravity of it of What they're dealing with and whatever what it resolves, I think would be helpful to know, you know. I think you have a idea, but just knowing, you know, the kind of numbers we're dealing with and you know what and what it does, you know, for the folks that are utilizing the service. I mean, I know what I could anecdotally from my conversations, I would help some, but just, you know, to really get a clear picture of what we're envisioning for this day space, that'll be helpful as part of that conversation, but I'd like to have it, I [34:37] Daniel Carson: was just going to say that I'm definitely in favor of like sending RFPs out now for staff to do that and then have the advisory committee be on once they're trained and they get going. That process has already been done because RFP is a process in itself. And so by the time that they're trained and ready, they jump in and look at it and see what we have, you know, who's interested in it and what does it look like and the numbers. And moving forward, I do definitely support that. [35:13] Carollynn Lear: Absolutely. Bec, would you like us to come back with more information before kicking off the RFP process? Or can we sort of work that concurrently? [35:21] Michael Beck: So I'll ask the question this way. Is staff confident in knowing what they need? Did an RFP? If they are, then I would say do the RFPs. I would be in favor of that. I think they are. [35:32] Carollynn Lear: Particularly, I think we would rely pretty heavily on Director of Public Health Jen Gunnerman. I think she has a really strong sense of provider community and what they would be looking for. And Jenna, you're welcome to come up if you want to talk a little bit about why you think this is a helpful tool, not to put you on the spot. I didn't ask her to put there, did you? Then hi, [35:58] Jen Gunderman: thank you, Jen Gunderman, Director of Angora Public Health and Community Services. You know, we don't, the idea of a day space is not presented lightly. It's from many conversations with the impacted community, with community-based organizations, healthcare providers. A day space is an evidence-based intervention. I fully recognize that you have a committee that's about to form and provide some really great guidance. Evidence. I also don't want to underestimate the guidance and the expertise that we leverage every day in our staff and with our community partners. The advisory committee is like the icing on the cake to bring it all together with us. I do think that we can be prepared to present an RFP that is detailed based upon the evidence, based upon our experience, include very important reporting requirements, and put that out for review. There are a couple of very specific challenges that we're dealing with right now. One of them is with the days the warming space is closing. The well, we're seeing, you know, 70 up to 70 people a day, the warming centers in the evening, and the coldest nights we're seeing about 120 people a night, just to give you a sense of numbers. The other thing that's happening is we are experiencing challenges with people maintaining housing. There's a lot of complexity in people's lives, and for people that are getting housed, you're feeling really alone. So a day space is not just for people experiencing homelessness, but people who've been housed and they are alone. We need to have a space for people to come together. What this also does is our community partners are chasing people around the city. This is expensive. When we have a health care provider spending so much time walking through town trying to find somebody, that cuts into their costs. So this is also a space where those service providers can be coming together for their efficiency and effectiveness as well. So just want you to think this is bigger than the people that we see experiencing homelessness. It is also the people who are newly housed that are really lonely right now are [38:10] Carollynn Lear: you looking for a motion? Yeah, I think I would like some form of vote just before we issue anything on behalf of the city to solicit proposals, to know that council is at least notionally in favor of moving forward. [38:26] Michael Beck: Well, I would move in favor of allowing staff to explore and send out RFPs for this process. [38:37] Susan Hawes: Okay, so I moved and seconded to have the staff prepare the RFPs to be sent out. We do need to do a roll call vote. Councilor Mallar? Yes. Councilor Deane? Yes. Councilor Carson? Yes. Council Walker? Yes. Councilor Flume? Yes. Council Beck? Yes. Council Leonard? Yes. Council Trish? Yes. And I will be a yes. [39:11] Carollynn Lear: All right, I'm going to make eye contact with direction from all that. How do you think we're doing timelines? Okay, perfect. So I'll hand it over. Thank [39:23] Susan Hawes: you 're [39:38] Recreation Director: Going to do very well, apparently not, because I said back down, but now get back up. Crazy. Recreation director here tonight to chat with you a few minutes as we talk about, we're going to come back to you with some pieces of our combined park and recreation scenario tonight. We thought it would be good to focus on the child care gymnasium piece for a few minutes. Prior to that, we pulled some pages from the final report that Barry done produced back in 2024. The summary, the executive summary that I have shared with this group was exactly that executive summary of that final report. I reference this because tonight might be helpful is to pull some pages as best we could from that, reference to childcare, the engagement that was done both through their website and the feedback and a thought from that, the stakeholder meetings that they had, the public forums that we had, and the pieces that it referenced as part of that process. Yes, you will see some overlap references to the ice and some of these pages I'm going to share with you, but at least it gives some sort of a basis as to where we arrived at some of the pieces we did in the initial study that was presented in 24 and ultimately what the special committee worked from in their report in 2025. So I'll start with that final report. I know councilman you're on the screen, so I'll make sure to leave a copy for you in the mailbox that was a over 100 paper for that was available on our site and we can make it available again if that's something I'd like us to see too. So the pages tonight are going to be a bit scattered. I hopefully have planned a little bit better this time than I did last time, so I'll start with stacks that way and then I'll come back to just a quick discussion and we've touched on many of these things before and I think each of you has been in the building at one time or another and knows what we're kind of up against as well as other pieces that can go along. So within those pages you have again and you're, You're going to see a scattered page on this throughout, but it talks about the engagement summary. It also references a survey of some of the components that were found important to the recognition center. For example, the gym. We're going to talk about the one we brought with it tonight because that was part of the gym, has been part of it all along. Some of the purpose spaces, cases, and certainly our school aid care program, our before and after use program. It also talks about some of the questions that they felt were most important to family, whether with facility, and again that's a reference to the ICE, the BIME facility. There are other pages in there that talk about what folks do currently with us at the time, some additional discussions you'll see a couple of references through here in these pages, a reference to the Y project time, so certainly that was out there as well as well as some of the other things that we're doing or that folks were hoping to see as part of a combined facility. So, again, recognize that many of the references that you have in the pages in front of you are general references, not specific to the gym, but they're also references to the meeting space, as well as childcare. And as we go, we'll pull other pages from that final report, sharing things with you. Questions of this thus far, again, if there's a change of direction before I leave the table this evening we'll be looking for that feedback, but we as we talked about before it felt like a money fee at least get this group to a point where they understood completely how we arrived where we can is that it's not like us. So I'm currently at park the rent, we'll start with school programming and you can run it back to the agency department, you also have the layout, the concept from the ability study Currently as we've talked about before we're running a school age program pre-k through grade five that's 130 participants in that program, which is capacity, they're all banger residents, we don't have any non-residents in the child care program. In addition to that and we've talked about this before, not specific to the building but as far as program, we do offer a key assistance program to residents. We also participate in state child care subsidy programs to further assist our residents as best we can to be able to have access to affordable child care. Not we're not a member driven organization or ministry department and here to serve citizens and all kinds of residents currently using four rooms on the bottom and top floors. The rec center for child care, if you have been through the building during check-in or check out, we have one entrance for both the child care and the general public. You could be coming in for an event permit application and be in front of the check-in checkout for child care for our before school program, the bus pick up and drop off. We have five buses that pick up in the morning and come back in the afternoon. That process is also the general parking lot of the building. So again, you could be coming in to Parks and Rec to sign up for the program, get an event permit, just have general questions, and be in the same parking lot as our beforehand school participants getting a fauna class. One of those rooms I mentioned to you doubles as an arts and crafts space. Another one doubles as the American Legion space. space. We do not have a dedicated one-on-one behavior space. That one-on-one dedicated behavior space is currently in the hallway by my office. Currently, if you have an accessibility issue, you cannot get from top to bottom in the building. If indeed you want to go to the lowest level of the building and you have some mobility challenges, that route is outside. We had a fence. We do have a lift that goes from the main floor to the third. The new building certainly would have secure, dedicated, four and a half school space with a dedicated drop-off pickup zone. That is for the safety of our participants to be able to dedicate them in their own child care space. There would be five individual classroom spaces as well as a common play space, which would allow us, and it's come up before, if we could add slots to the childcare. So apparently we're in four space, four rooms that double as different activity rooms. The new concept would have had up to five spaces to allow for that. Certainly we're going to be able to increase the square footage available for child care. We would have had a dedicated one-on-one behavior space and we're not dealing with anything that kids gave from a foreign school program that schools don't see on a regular basis, other child care providers don't see on a regular basis. The opportunity for participants when they need it to have that calming one-on-one space would be that would be part of accessibility to be improved and we would be able to Improve our supervision as well, ultimately be on one level, not three, so regular day with kids gave our before and after school program. They will transition from top to bottom and floors up and down stairs on a regular basis. Understand that students at the Mary Snow School and students at the Paramount School should go up and down floors as well, but on one level they can transition much easier to all the spaces they'll be on the right track so far, okay. [49:27] Daniel Carson: Question for everyone that you need, I can't really have too many. Any questions tonight? [49:38] Susan Faloon: I know you're disappointed, but. [49:41] Recreation Director: No, it's, it's, you don't have to worry about that. We [49:51] Michael Beck: can come back to them when I come back next time. That's easier. [49:55] Susan Faloon: I'm gonna give it a try. This isn't really a question, but like, I appreciate all of this information. For me personally, I would kind of be looking for, like maybe you know I mean this is helpful to you of course I would be kind of looking for like addressing some of the things that came up when we took that last vote of looking at the size of the project because I think that is something that we have to consider that it's probably going to have to be scaled back a bit and I'm not saying there's not a need for these things but I think just that sticker shock is just too much for people to absorb and I think that looking at the sponsorship things grant things all of those things so that we know that we've got some money going toward it that's not all coming from taxpayers to me those are the things that I would want to be looking for like this is all great information but this is none of this has changed from that original plan so that's just my perspective [51:18] Joseph Leonard: I'll just say really quickly like I don't think any anyone even people that were against the plan had anything against the child care facilities in any way I don't even really have issues in fact if you wanted to add more I mean I'd be open to hearing about those I think more so the concerns were regarding the other two parts of the discussion so I don't really have any feedback on this portion I but I support this portion of the project absolutely [51:51] Susan Deane: Absolutely. Hunt for time. How do you agree with the sponsorship portion that Councilman brought up? But I think that's more to do with the ice. This is something that we need to provide for our citizens, and it's not really a moneymaker. It's more of a program so that families can get out and work and they have a place for their kids to go and be safe before and after school. So this part I think is essential. I do think we need to know the bare minimum. What is the minimum cost to put something forward that is maybe not as grand scale as what was originally planned for both the child care and the gymnasium portion, and see where we can go from there? And also hoping that we'll get that $24 million grant, which would put a big dent into it. Wouldn't that be nice? So that would be wonderful. But I think we're looking for the dollar figure, and that dollar figure [52:52] Susan Hawes: was just too much. [52:57] Recreation Director: So back to scaling back and that enough that question for sure and understand that the dollar amount wasn't enough. We recognized that at the beginning. By going through some of the pieces that we're going to go through, you're going to hear from us that we're currently doing, and the gymnasium is going to be in depth with that. We talk about the gymnasium, what we're currently doing, the spaces that were part of this study and included the feedback that you have in front of you, it's based a lot of what we're doing now, incorporating that into a more efficient way, and then providing a facility that we can grow from. So, it's two different efforts as part of that original concept. I'll take a few minutes to talk about the gymnasium, and then again, if this room wants something different from us, as far as information, and I've heard a couple of things already, we can certainly come back the next time, when we talked before, was to try and break it up a little bit to get a little deeper understanding of how we arrived at the million dollar square footage space that we did. So if I can just take a couple minutes to talk about the gym and then we'll circle back for direction. And if we complete a different path, let us know that. If breaking it out like we have done to ultimately get to the same place, at least it's helpful that this group knows how we arrived at where we did. So the gymnasium, probably the largest user of gymnasium is a youth basketball program. We offer that program for kindergarten through eighth grade. This past season we have approximately 375 youth in that program. That represents between 32 and 38 separate teams. One gym doesn't cut it. One gym doesn't cut it. Ninety percent of those participants are regular residents, and that's a general and comes with human at that core majority of our programs. 90 percent of our participation are bangle residents. Certainly as a manager chair with you the canoe race, that's that's a standalone event, but certainly probably promotes the city and promotes the most. Currently this past season we utilize seven different gems to make that program happen: Parks and Rec, the Dowdy School, Cullen School, the High School, Lyons Street School, Fairgrounds School, and East Union Community College. And I'll come back to East Union Community College with a couple of other programs. So certainly we are limited to availability with the schools, and we recognize that and just appreciate the opportunity to be in those spaces. High school we essentially utilize on Sundays. The other schools we use when available for practices. The reality is for our second grade program, for example, some of those participants are leaving that school from practice at 8 o'clock at night, so for that age that can be a challenge. We've We've also utilized the Downey School and we have had to utilize the Beezy Community School just to align with and satisfy the need we have in our program currently. So the gymnasium specifically when you hear and what was presented when there are three. The ability to consolidate some of the use that we're already doing into one gymnasium makes for a better program for our citizens and a better opportunity for our citizens. We currently do walking three days a week in the gym at Parks and Rec and it's two hours a day. So I mentioned that specifically it's limited because of other needs in the gym, and it's not available during school vacation weeks because we have our school age program in there. The purpose of the elevated walking track as presented in the study was to allow for a more open use for citizens to be able to come and walk and utilize that opportunity. It also would allow for parents or caregivers to get that wellness activity in while also having a child participate in something else while at the Park and Rec Center. So again, yes, it would be expanding what we currently already offer and have for years. We have offered youth wrestling before. Youth wrestling had to wait for basketball to get over in order for that to be accommodated. And ultimately, availability of gym space became a challenge. The gymnasium, we currently have to dedicate a four-hour school program during winter months. So programs like our preschool open gym, which we offer three days a week. If you ever come down or have been down on a Monday, Wednesday, or Friday morning, that gym is full. That's a free program. That is a free program that parents or caregivers can bring toddlers to. They like the space because of its one level, easy to control. We currently do that. We have other homeschool groups that use the gym. We have adult care groups that use the gym. We've started to offer pickleball indoor at night. We have to do that at Easterly Community College because of the lack of availability at parks, correct, for other programs, adult activities. We also do these community college. And we're fortunate to have that rapport and that relationship with them. Were it not for them, we wouldn't have – some of these programs we wouldn't be able to do currently. We have a Baton program that's quite successful. We have to move Baton to the Mary Snow School to accommodate day other programming in the general parks, and ultimately capacity in the parking lot is consistently an issue for us. If you're at our facility on a Saturday, they are parked all the building on the street because we have, we just have activity on Saturdays from nine in the morning until five o'clock at night on Saturdays, Sundays if we have multiple activities, these in the building, early party rentals have been huge for us, we can only Do those on Sunday so it goes back to the design, the original design, and the consistent design and layout, the square footage of the entire rec center, specifically the gymnasium and child care, and you'll see this also with the ice was designed as much on current need and what we're doing as well as potential for growth. So starting with the gymnasium and the three courts, an opportunity to consolidate the music and spreading all over the city. If you try to watch a youth game in that gymnasium, you really don't have a place to do that if you're not around what's going on with the court. We're not able to host any sort of outside basketball or volleyball events because of that and again as we talked about the elevated walking track it augments and improves what we're already doing and allows for more opportunity to do that 's why it was included has been included as part of the study so again much of what i've easily conveyed is that as much what we're currently doing to improve that as it is to expand. [1:01:20] Susan Hawes: We have two questions. Yeah, sure. Council person. [1:01:24] Susan Faloon: Is there a charge for using the Eastern Maine Community College to any of the other facilities? [1:01:32] Recreation Director: So we have worked out that it's kind of an interesting model in that, yes, we charge on a drop-in basis. [1:01:43] Susan Faloon: No, I mean, sorry. I mean, do they charge you? [1:01:45] Recreation Director: So, no,, it's a shared use. What we have agreed to is allowing Houston Community College students with an ID to use the gym when our programs are there. So it was an interesting trial, candidly, because of the location that we have proposed on Griffin Road, there might be a similar opportunity across the street with Hudson University. So, that's always been part of the discussion, is the relationships that could be built with Husson University with our location on Griffin Road. [1:02:30] Daniel Carson: Question and then perhaps a comment. This is back to the childcare, which is extremely important. The programs that you're running, the before and after school, are they actually like confined to before school and after school? Is there some overlap with the start of the school day at the end of the school day [1:02:51] Recreation Director: So if you have a child enrolled in the Kids Cave program, you can drop them off at Parks and Rec starting at 6:45 in the morning. We then put them on a bus to their respective schools, and then at the end of the day they get on the same bus to come back to Parks and Rec, and you as a parent can take your child into Parks and Rec at the end of the day. So we align the program to fit the school day. Similarly with school vacations and snow days and in-service days, we align with the Bangor School Department. [1:03:33] Daniel Carson: So I'm wondering if there is an opportunity as a, as a band-aid while we're working something out, is there an opportunity for us to [1:03:45] Recreation Director: use school buildings for the child care? They don't have a space either, without, as a general statement, I don't want to speak for the school department. The school department is challenged already with space issues. We do work with them on youth basketball as a prime example through the 21st Century grant. There was a time a number of years ago where we tried that model. We tried a model at the Mary Snow School and the Fairmount School. We were in the basement at Mary Snow School and we utilized the cafeteria a fair amount. Ultimately we transitioned it back to Parks and Rec. So yeah, we've tried that model. I appreciate hearing that [1:04:39] Daniel Carson: experience and one more comment if i could for me when i voted against that it was the price tag i 'm not opposed to any particular component of the design in fact i think about that project and also the desire that we have to grow our economy. It's a really great selling point that we'd be able to do that. My particular concern was that I could be persuaded to bond something expensive if we were going to see a return on that. So when you, like bonding housing, for example, we're in a housing crisis, we need housing. If I was to bond housing, right, and do that, it's built, once somebody is in there and owns that house, they have become a property taxpayer. And so that is a thing that you're doing and you're growing a base and you're getting some money back at the end of that while also addressing a crisis. This is a little bit different in that it's all in to the project, right? When this is done, this is gonna be a municipally owned operation. Operation, we're not going to, it's not going to broaden the base itself, unless we're able to sell that as an economic driver and recruit new businesses and new people to come. So my primary concern is that it's entirely municipally funded through bonding. I appreciate that there's opportunities with Hasan. I would appreciate more if Hasan wanted to contribute financially to the process, and the same with others who so. For me it's not what's in the building, it's more about how the pieces of funding that we're able to put together to achieve that without burdening are already very burdened rate payers. And with all the uncertainty we have right now, that was another driver for me, right? I mean, thinking about the costs and there's more going on and energy prices are out of control and I don't even think we can predict building prices right now with how things, how volatile things are. So it was, it really for me was just that piece, you know, that if we could figure out a better way to work that out, okay. [1:07:04] Michael Beck: For me, I don't know if the question has been satisfactorily answered about the overlap with the YMCA. You know, just like last year Diane Dickerson said, mentioned this room for one room duplication where, you know, they've got water, we've got ice, and then she came again, came and spoke when this came up again. So I guess I'd like to learn more about, you know, what happens if we don't do this? What kind of capacity do they have? Can they pick this up? I almost feel like it would be cheaper for us always to give a scholarship with a difference in membership price rather than having to eat the whole cost of this thing. Because the other thing is, I like to, I enjoy hearing how many partnerships we have in schools, because this is also in the back of my mind, are these buildings, some of them are over 100 years old and it won't be much longer they're going to come knocking and saying hey we need a new building, which means another bond. And I'm wondering, rather than us trying to go through this build this whole separate expensive building, what if we partnered with the schools and say if it's coming that way, we're going to do bonds, how do we work this in a way that you get what you need but also making sure you've got the capacity for what we need to kind of get to or being for our buck, you know, we're going to do a bond anyway because we have to have buildings for our education. You know, is that another path we can go into this? What can we do to work with the schools to, you know, help them get A new building, but also make it usable for the city, so that's something also I'd like to think about. I don't think anyone disagrees, like all of these things are nice to have, and you know, hearing about them again, I guess doesn't change my mind. It just goes back to what's affordable, what's feasible, and that price tag, and this is still getting around it. And the last piece, and I don't think tonight's the night to talk about it, but we'll come back to the ice arena. I still would like to see that part broken off from this project and handed to the community. I think the community can come together, you know, whether it's the hockey organizations, the people using the facility, you know, empower them to come up with a plan and empower them to come up with a way to finance and maintain this thing, and we'll help where we can. But I'd like to see us do what other communities are doing, where you know, it's not a municipality owned building, it's owned by an organization, a non-profit, you know, that cares for and manages it, and I'd rather them come to see us at the finish line, hey, can you help us get past the last million and a half, two million bucks to make this happen, rather than having to be a part of the whole 65, 70 million dollar project. But those are some of my thoughts, where I'm at on this, well [1:09:41] Joseph Leonard: I was just going to concur with counselor Beck, and in actuality, with that bonding idea, that actually might be a worthy discussion for us to bring the school committee together with, to see if that's even an option that we want to talk about. Is there a way that we can communicate with the school department to see if that's something that they would at least have interest in? Yeah [1:10:03] Carollynn Lear: I mean, I think certainly, I think what I think what we took away from the conversation, at least particularly with respect to this portion of the project, with the child care center, we heard that there was a desire to reduce costs, and I think when Tracy and I chatted about it, you know, when we went back to that drawing, It was not immediately clear to us how it was possible to do that and still maintain the level of programming that we offer today. And I think that was what we were trying to sort of convey here, is that to take the project as it was envisioned for the childcare portion and reduce costs. It was going to result in a lot of decisions that needed to be made about programming going forward, which is not something that we would want to make unilaterally. We would want to have that sort of robust conversation with Council. So I think that's what we were trying to get today, is it is if the desire is to cut costs. Where are we making those cuts? I [1:11:11] Joseph Leonard: think the primary issue of the entire piece was the ice. Overall, I've actually heard from a number of citizens, actually, that when they heard that, because we went for two sheets of ice as opposed to one, and we were sort of landlocked into that single address, that also limited the amount of the scope of the project in terms, this is like the only place that it really could have worked. And so I think unshackling us, this project, from the ice itself and having the ice be its own separate project working with people in the community that want ice in the community with us happy to do like the getting to the end of the finish line sort of sort of our projects I 'd be more than fine having a second somewhere in the ballpark of a seven-figure allocation to helping the community with giving some ice in the area but that single project part of the project alone is correct me if i'm wrong it's the most expensive part of the project the ice would be [1:12:37] Recreation Director: the more of the pieces that we identified between the most expensive, yeah, so many years ago, was that model that started out as a youth hockey facility. As far as coordinating with the school department, we have done that from the beginning, specifically the maintenance piece. The maintenance building was going to combine school maintenance with park maintenance to help them alleviate their current school maintenance is at the high school in the back of the building. If they could free that space up they could use that for curriculum space. To the question about coordinating the school department, this is the time if there's an opportunity that in the pre-k program, I think it's coming down the line for them. There's no community to from backwards, we already have that, so that's something that we probably [1:13:49] Susan Hawes: sufficiently good [1:13:51] Carollynn Lear: Sorry, I just want to know time. We do have an executive session where we need to talk about a bargaining issue, so we could wrap this up. We can then continue it at another session. It doesn't need to be the answer today. That's my problem. Sure, that's the question, and I think [1:14:07] Carolyn Fish: we had a conversation with the joint school and city, and we talked about this, and if my recollection was, they didn't see an avenue where they could really, I mean, they were excited about it for the opportunities for them, but they were very discouraging to us as to any part of the responsibility. They just weren't in a position then, and I don't think a few years change much, but and the ice component, I, you know, the big ticket item is, you know, took a shock, but at the same time the ice component to me economically presented a lot of income, potentially income, and creative, you know, ideas around that annual income. There's a lot more opportunity around that, so I would be interested. I do think right out of the gate, I agree with the other counselors that maybe that's phase two or three, but rather than, you know, cutting it right off altogether, I'd like us to look maybe a little more creatively to the enterprising component. Also there's a huge community of people out there that participate in hockey locally and our local communities that would have a great need for that. So I'd like to see that. And also I think the last time I mentioned, I can't remember the term and I forgot to send you, I will send you some information from a rec, [1:15:45] Susan Deane: I think I'm in New York. [1:15:47] Carolyn Fish: They came up with some creative bonding, but they were able to get some great, it was an unusual hybrid bond and it was in phases. So I would like to also see how we can look at that a little more often, open-mindedly, and see how that might be able to apply to what you've created, what, you know, from what we have as a template, but how we can maybe break it down to phase one. Or if we get lucky, we can get the grant and we can come up with a creative hybrid, and we can get some enterprising ideas on that component. component you know maybe we can somehow miraculously piece together a solution but i 'd like to kind of see how those other components might play into this so [1:16:34] Recreation Director: we're going to go. It sounds like ice will be one of the topics next time. We're trying to invest in contact act if you miss it, and we'll be working on potential liberty. There's a couple apps [1:16:50] Daniel Carson: Do we have a motion for executive session, Madam Chair? Suede to one MRFA section 4056d American Federation State County and Municipal Employees Local 926 works and we enter executive session. [1:17:10] Susan Hawes: Seconded. We will have a roll call vote. Council Mallory, I. [1:17:22] Carolyn Fish: Vote yes. We go into executive session. [1:17:25] Susan Hawes: Okay. Council Dean, yes. Council Carton, yes. Council Walker, yes. Council Floon, yes. Council Beck, yes. Council Leonard, yes. Council Fish, yes. And I will be a yes. We are in executive.