Sanford Planning Board reviews draft comprehensive plan update

[0:00] Speaker A (unidentified): Just saying, we're going to walk out with a separate plan. [0:03] Planning Board Chair: I was going to be very abbreviated, but that's fine. [0:07] Speaker A (unidentified): We don't have a date. Okay. [0:09] Planning Board Chair: All right, good evening. We're going to start the meeting. We don't have any public hearings, so no need to read the opening statement. I'm just going to quickly go through the agenda just so everybody's aware. We do have a presentation of the comprehensive plan update from Barry Dunn, And then we have three hearings that are remaining on the table, and then we'll do our normal director's report and communications at the end. All right. So are you here from Barry Dunn? [0:41] Speaker A (unidentified): I will introduce Allie. She's our consultant with Barry Dunn. Her and her team have been working with us on the comprehensive plan update. We're making good headway. We thought it would be a good time just to bring you guys kind of up to speed on what we've done, where we've been, and where we're going. Generic, what a comprehensive plan is, just for those listening at home. Just like a progress report so you guys are current with where we're at. [1:10] Allie Tobey: Do you know if the presentation is loaded, Jamie? Ben? [1:23] Speaker A (unidentified): I'm sorry? It's on, we can get to it from? Is it on the website? We can get to her from the website. Sorry, Ben, I had a brain cramp for a second. And then Ben will pull it up. Okay, perfect. [2:24] Allie Tobey: Hi, everyone. Good evening. Thanks for bearing with us for a minute. For those of you that I haven't met, my name is Allie Tobey. I'm a manager with Barry Dunn, and I lead our planning and development services practice, provide similar services, comprehensive planning support throughout the state, and are really excited to be partnering with the city on this initiative as well as with our partners at BHB. I have a short presentation today just to give an update to the full planning board on where the project is at today. So we'll walk through just at a high level what is the comprehensive plan, the state elements outlined in the planning process, community engagement that's been conducted to date, and then walk through components that are in draft form today, so walking through the draft vision statement, and then talking through future land use, draft future land use strategy, and then some high-level overview of policies and actions in that structure. Really just building the framework so that when we come back to you with a draft plan, you're seeing some familiar concepts here. So what is the comprehensive plan? It is a long-term vision that really guides where and how the city will grow over time. It's that long-term kind of policy framework. It doesn't establish kind of any legal basis for immediate zoning ordinance changes or anything like that, but it does provide that framework that in the future any zoning ordinance updates would need to be consistent with a comprehensive plan, and through that process kind of provides direction for the next 10 years, and is a roadmap to update and guide a variety of different topics from housing economy to natural resource protection, all the way through infrastructure investment, and is really a roadmap to guide growth and development policy within the city, as well as capital investment and capital planning. This process is overseen by the state's Growth Management Act, and under that act, there are several required components for the comprehensive plan. So first, a vision statement grounded in public participation and public feedback, and inventory and analysis of existing conditions. So that's not an exhaustive kind of document of every single condition that exists in the city, but is a planning level tool to support some of the policy and strategy framework. If you're curious to see that, full document as well as a story map version, so a summary version of that, is available on the Sanford Connects webpage for the comprehensive plan. And then the meat of the plan itself is really that future land use map and plan, so that framework for where and how the city will grow over time, and then supported by specific policies and actions to help implement the community's vision and that future land use plan, and then underpinned by a regional coordination strategy and an implementation strategy to support ongoing evaluation and implementation of specific actions within the plan. So prior to Barry Dunn joining this process earlier this calendar year, the comprehensive plan steering committee has been meeting for close to two years at this point, and we're conducting series of engagement and other activities, and so those have been folded into kind of this overview as well. And so events conducted so far include a community heart and soul event in mid 2025 and larger community survey, and then a question of the month series focusing on different activities specific to kind of Different topic areas within the comprehensive plan, so things related to how you see your family's transportation needs changing over the next year, all the way through, what types of development might be appropriate in different places throughout Stanford, tabled at the July 3rd block party, met with folks at the Trafton Center, and then last week conducted a community open house that was in person on Wednesday last week. There's also online opportunities for folks who weren't able to make that to participate on the same activities online, and that will go through Monday next week, so October 12th that online feedback opportunity will close, and then there's ongoing steering committee meetings, there's also currently a photo contest that is live as well, so chance for community members to share photos that would be included in the final plan document, and then there will be ongoing kind of pop-up activities tabling events similar to the July 3rd event, as well as some additional engagement going later into December, early next year. So taking a pause now, collecting all of that community feedback, that community input, and then moving into kind of the policy framework of we heard from the community, this is the direction, these are the priorities, now how do we build a framework around that before going back to the community early next calendar year. Some high-level themes that have emerged, I think things that all of you have probably continued to hear as well, need to address affordability and cost pressures, revitalizing and reinvesting in downtown Sanford and Springvale, expanding local businesses, restaurants, retail options, addressing some community safety concerns and perception of safety in public places, maintaining and improving public infrastructure like roads, enhancing walkability and connectivity between different places within the city, improving and investing in parks, trails, and outdoor recreation, building on the assets that exist today, promoting additional economic development and permanent job opportunities, strengthening community engagement and connection, and then balancing the city's small-town feel while still planning for and accommodating the growth that the city has experienced in recent years. And so taking that initial framework, those community inputs and feedback, worked with the steering committee to develop up a vision statement. So that is kind of the first piece of the comprehensive plan. So where do we want to be in 10 in 20 years in the future? When you think about Sanford of tomorrow, what does that look like? What are the shared values that exist there? And that sets the overall structure for the policies and actions and goals for this plan. So there were two options that were shared with the community and those were put to a vote. The steering committee meeting last month landed on this option, influenced by community vote. This will be slightly tweaked and refined but includes a vision at the top for kind of the future and then underpinned by eight community goals. So in the full planning document, each policy action will be structured underneath each one of those community goals and then looking to again that the meat of this plan which is that future land use plan that future land use map. The city's current comprehensive plan was written in 2002 and updated again in 2005 and so what you see on the screen is the current future land use map and so within that first eight requirements have to delineate a growth area so where kind of geographically does the city want to promote and invest in the most amount and see the most amount of growth, capital investment, infrastructure investment there, and where do you want to see maybe some transitional areas, and then what areas should be preserved and protected as those rural areas. So this is the current land-use map. While this comprehensive planning process has been happening, there have been some shifts at the state level that have tied growth and development specifically to growth areas. So I think talking through you'll can work through some zoning changes to align with that in the short term but looking at LD 2173 and LD 1829 really outline kind of what minimum lot sizes need to be what kind of density you have to allow in certain areas and those are directly tied to the growth areas outlined in the comprehensive plan so through this process have also worked with the steering committee to be considerate of what those boundaries look like knowing that there are some increased density tied to some of these growth areas as well. And so through this process, refining the existing future land use map, so really focusing kind of on those growth areas, transition rural areas, and those are further broken down and refined into land use categories, so kind of broad areas within a growth area, within a transition area, within a rural area, and kind of where kind of different types of development might be appropriate and what those different areas look like and feel like, knowing that downtown Sanford and Springvale should look and feel different than if the main corridor should look and feel different from the industrial areas from the rural areas today. And so those are broken out further into land use categories which include a mix of characteristics like the type of housing that might exist in a place, where different types of businesses or industry might be throughout the city, how dense and close together buildings are or how spread out they are, they close to each other, are they close to the street, really planning out kind of the vision for what those are, and then following comprehensive plan adoption the zoning implementation changes would happen to implement that vision kind of more on a parcel by parcel kind of regulatory basis, whereas the land use categories here really just provide that kind of direction in that framework for later ordinance updates. And then again based on community feedback as well as some of the unique pieces within Sanford, looking at environmental considerations as well, so where does it make the most sense to invest and see that growth in that density, and what areas exist today that might have some environmental constraints or considerations that should look to plan around as well. And so the map you see here is beginning with habitat data outlining a lot of different things from shoreland zoning areas to undeveloped habitat blocks, wetlands, conserved lands, endangered threatened species habitats. So again, really overlaying this on top of any growth framework. Delineating something as a growth area does not mean that it is not subject to shoreland zoning, to floodplain considerations, and other environmental constraints as well. And so this really overlays that growth plan and that growth framework that you see here. This is the draft land use map that the steering committee is currently working through and refining. So the growth areas here include industrial areas, the orange mixed-use corridor, and downtown Sanford and Springvale. So compared to the 2002-2005 map, consolidating that growth area to where that highest level of density is the most appropriate and expanding some of those transitional areas around that to still accommodate for a transitional neighborhood and those areas between that dense area and those really, rural places that exist in Sanford today. So you'll see transitional neighborhoods and transitional corridors here to still allow for some growth and change over time, but not to the level that you might see in downtown Sanford Springvale that Main Street corridor connecting Sanford Springvale all the way through those industrial areas that exist and then all of that is underpinned by policies and strategies this is framed in that vision statement that we talked about so those eight goal areas each of the policies will relate to a goal area or multiple and it provides a high level policy framework identifying kind of priorities and groupings for strategies and then those specific actions so that 1.1.2 going down are more specific actions there this is currently draft work that the steering committee is going through and the example you'll see on the left relates to historic resources archaeological resources and so those are currently being refined but ultimately will be part of the implementation plan that will assign things like priority and timeline, responsible departments or agencies, relative cost, and what type of strategy is that. Is that a regulation? Is that a plan? Is that a change in policy or a partnership going forward? And I'll note that there are several state required items that need to be included in the comprehensive plan, policies and strategies included. So you'll see on the far right column there, talking through some of those relevant state requirements there that the steering committee is also looking at and considering as they go through that but just to make sure that we're all kind of keeping track of what needs to be included in this document as well before it goes to state review so as far as next steps go upcoming engagement opportunities again ongoing photo contest and then steering committee meetings as well and then through the end Of this calendar year, focusing on refining that future land use map, those policies and actions, and then going into final plan. So pulling all of these pieces that we've talked about today into a final document, and then review by the steering committee, public input, before referring that to the planning board for you all to review and go through, and then ultimately to city council for adoption. Looking at that March, April time frame for that final adoption. A lot of me talking. That's all that I had on my presentation, but happy to talk through any questions. I know three of you here have been involved in the steering committee to date, and this isn't new information for this board. [16:28] Speaker D (unidentified): Finally, the end is in sight. [16:31] Speaker A (unidentified): Could you go back to the future land use map, please? This was one of the areas that I kind of wanted you guys to have an opportunity to look at and see if you kind of agree with where the committee is going thus far with the thought process. In reality, it's not dramatically different than our current future land use map. It's more colorful. We've broken it up into more categories than we had before. More specifically, at the steering committee level, we've been talking about the transitional corridors. For instance, Route 4, both to Alford and North Berwick, Route 202, up past the hospital all the way to Lubb City, those types of corridors. You guys as the Planning Board, do you guys see those as potential future business, potential small to medium-sized businesses? Do you see that as remaining residential? Do you see it as a mixed-use corridor? Or what do you guys think about those quote-unquote transitional areas? [17:43] Planning Board Chair: I think it makes sense to have those be, I mean, that's where your densest traffic is going to be. It's where most of the infrastructure is going to be. So having that mixed use, that makes the most sense to me. So are we going away from zones like we have now where the urban zone and the residential development zone? Or are those going to be applied on top of this? [18:09] Speaker A (unidentified): So this is the big picture. Yeah. The actual, what we call the zones, if, let's say, for these transitional corridors, we could potentially have two or three different zones along that corridor, the further you get from the built-up until you get to the country. That doesn't have to be one zone. It could be one zone with different land use codes allowed in different size lots or whatnot. So the future land use map actually doesn't determine the names of the zones or really how many zones we have. It kind of says where we see more dense growth. [18:51] Allie Tobey: Am I saying it? Yeah, exactly, right. So there might be multiple zoning districts within a single land use category. For example, you might want to break out those more urban neighborhoods surrounding like immediate downtown Sanford and the mill. So there's some flexibility and what that looks like, but this really just establishes that direction and overall vision for the type of, kind of just the way the community wants to see that look and feel in the future. [19:14] Planning Board Chair: I mean, that makes sense. I think one of the concerns that we're going to have going forward, especially when we're on this industrial zoning task force, is understanding those shoulders, right? So I see on this picture we have the industrial back right up to rural. So that's one of those hard spots that we're going to have to figure out, but that makes more sense where we can take these and further break them down from a planning perspective to make sure we're doing this responsibly. [19:42] Allie Tobey: And the test in the future is, does your future zoning ordinance, does it match the vision and the intent of the comprehensive plan? And so there's some flexibility there. These boundaries might be refined and tweaked over time just based on how conditions change, but at least setting the initial intent for some of these areas. [20:03] Planning Board Chair: I know we have made some other changes since the last comp plan to make these zones make more sense. So, yeah, I totally get that. Jamie? [20:14] Speaker A (unidentified): I'll use an example. We have a lot of rural parts of Sanford. It's 50% of Sanford is currently in the non-growth areas. If, for instance, the planning board in 2028 said, you know what, that section of land on stream northwest, we think that's the good spot to put urban zoning that allows high rises where there's no public infrastructure. That would be going against the future land use plan because that's not shown here as a dense, developable area in the future. So this just like helps guide. So as soon as Barry Dunn is done with this, actually before they're complete with this, I'm going to go out for RFP for the zoning ordinance amendments that's going to follow this. This document is going to be what steers maybe even the same team of people, I think they do that work too, to then help us draft our next zoning map and ordinance amendments to go with it. [21:21] Speaker E (unidentified): Right. That was my concern, and I appreciate that. This is the start, and then it's the actual zoning documents. [21:28] Speaker A (unidentified): This is the vision. Correct. This is what steers those future direct decisions. [21:32] Speaker E (unidentified): So, by the way, I do agree those route corridors make sense for what we have now. Just how much longer does the town have to say, is there another corridor that we missed, or any adjustments to this? [21:52] Allie Tobey: Go ahead. So, as part of the implementation plan here, there will be guidance around how and when you should revisit this comprehensive planning document. This isn't going to be static over the course of a decade, but should periodically be revisited of, oh, are we seeing new growth emerging in different areas that we didn't expect when this was written? Are there, you know, changing conditions? Are we seeing need for different types of housing or businesses, and there's going to be a need to reevaluate what this looks like in the future. So there's ability to be flexible with that if You know the rest of that 202 corridor going out towards Lebanon That's not shown in that dark purple today if that is something that emerges There's the ability to change and be flexible over time [22:32] Speaker A (unidentified): When Ali started her presentation, she said Currently our plan was created in 2002 amended last in 2005 So it's fairly typical to have a comprehensive plan updated every five or so ish years It's not typical to have a plan updated every 25 or so issues. So we are a little bit behind the eight ball in this process. We're going to try to do better in the future. But I'm sure you've all read the comprehensive plan we currently are operating under. It is actually not a horrible document as to where we're at today. So although it is older than it should be, I don't think there would have been major edits to it had we done an edit every five years like we were supposed to. There's been more change in the last five years than the previous 20 I guess is what I'm trying to say. [23:29] Speaker D (unidentified): Anybody have anything else? What's this photo contest? [23:33] Allie Tobey: Anybody in the community is able to submit photos that we would credit everybody who submits, but we're looking for photos to use in the final document. So submitting those from the community, and then we'll try to use as many of those as possible in the final planning document. Is that on Sanford Connects? It is. Okay. [23:52] Speaker A (unidentified): And just if we're going to go out and take pictures, if you have pictures, that's great. We are looking for both iPhone pictures that everybody does and higher resolution ones too for a bigger format if we choose to use them in it. So if you do take iPhone pictures, try to take them in a higher format so that if we want to blow it up a little bit on a page, it's not super blurry. I think we'll get some good pictures out of this. There's a lot of people that take pride in Sanford, especially this time of year heading into foliage season. So I'm hopeful we can get some beautiful pictures to represent us for the next 10 or so years. [24:33] Speaker F (unidentified): Just to backtrack a little bit, how much is the state regulations playing in this? [24:38] Speaker A (unidentified): I know we talked about this a little bit, the state regulations. Do you see that kind of shaping this a little bit more [24:43] Allie Tobey: before it's completed so based on this version of the future land use map that exists today at a very high level recent state statutes communities within designated growth areas in areas that are served by water and sewer both of those things have to be true the city can't allow for a lot size smaller than or larger than 5,000 square feet so if somebody wants to build on 5,000 square feet the city has to allow that in those specific areas and they can build up to four units on that 5,000 square feet and so that is a consideration when looking at the growth areas that exist today of where is that density the most appropriate to allow for that and so in the current draft it allows for that kind of density where there's some of that existing kind of 5,000 square foot lot sizes those more urban neighborhoods as well as those larger multi-family homes and mill buildings. And then within those transition areas, if it's served by water and sewer, I believe it's 10,000 square foot lot sizes in one unit on those. So there still has to be some density in those areas. And so looking at where there's existing water and sewer infrastructure to help guide where that most dense development should be and then where some of that transition should happen so [26:11] Speaker A (unidentified): In reality, the future draft future land use map shrinks the growth zone ever so slightly. And back when it was done 20-ish years ago, there was a little bit higher expectation that public water and sewer would be expanded more than it has been. And it has, there's been attempts to expand it but hit by ledge and other constraints of the community. So we shrunk it to pretty much match what is currently served by public water and sewer or is likely to be extended with a little bit more reality in that likely to be extended. [26:55] Speaker D (unidentified): Andre from the sewer department made a comment about he can only pump up so much into the [27:02] Speaker A (unidentified): mouse in certain during certain months. So yes, the statutory state requirements say that any sewer treatment plant can only discharge so much treated effluent into a body of water. In this case, our sewage treatment plant discharges into the mouse and River, so dependent on the flow of the river depends on how much effluent they could discharge in that given day. [27:33] Speaker D (unidentified): Would that affect how many houses could be built and hook up the sewer? [27:37] Speaker A (unidentified): In theory, but we are at, I don't want to put words in the sewer district's mouth, but a Jamie guesstimate, we are at 50 percent capacity at this point. Okay. There has been a few years when we have had severe drought, and we have been in a drought this year, and I don't think we lost the availability to pump into the river at all this summer. There have been other summers that we have had to put the discharge into the lagoon and then once the flow came up we pump it from the lagoon to the river. But we're nowhere near capacity at this point. [28:16] Allie Tobey: And I'll note with that as well just part of the framework in developing this land use piece is that broader community concern about affordability and increased costs and so really focus in growth in areas that are served by that existing infrastructure, so both water and sewer, as well as existing networks of roads and streets, and that walkability piece, where does that make the most sense to focus, those types of development patterns that can support that. And so that was a big part of what underpinned that growth strategy as well. Anyone [28:54] Speaker F (unidentified): else? I think we've had some really good discussions about, as a group, [29:00] Speaker A (unidentified): I think a lot of people have chipped in with their thoughts, and I think we've had some really good discussions over the past few months. I agree. We had the community forum last Wednesday night at Memorial Gym. It was fairly well attended. There was some new faces, which was always great to see. A lot of times these community events, it's the same 15 people that come. This time we had some unfamiliar faces, so that was great to see. They're hosting it online as well. They're starting to get some responses back from the online open house, similar style thing just digitally instead of in person. So my fear going into this was that we're going to have trouble garnishing public input. I actually feel they have done a great job in making it happen where I actually feel comfortable now that we got public input in this process. This is you guys' plan as the planning board, but also as the citizens. So you guys represent the citizens as a whole, but I'm glad that we did get public input because that was my fear is that a group of people, steering committee, we got anywhere from 15 to 25 people on average. For a city of 23,000, that's a very low percentage. So, I wanted more general public input, and I feel we've gotten it. I would love to hold an event where a thousand people show up. That's not reality anywhere. [30:34] Speaker D (unidentified): Oh, they'll still complain about it. [30:37] Speaker A (unidentified): But Megan, our communications coordinator, has done a good job of pushing stuff on Facebook, on Connex and all that, and Barry Dunn has done a great job working with them to working with her to get everything out in the public eye as much as possible so I now feel good that we've we've done our best and we've gotten some good responses does the state have to approve this the state has to approve this in the end yes what's [31:07] Planning Board Chair: the criteria for the state to approve it [31:09] Allie Tobey: So the Growth Management Act outlines everything that needs to be included there and if you go to the main office of community affairs website they have a full kind of like cliff notes version of that as well and a self-assessment checklist so you can go through and see this analysis needs to be included in the inventory of this policy the essence of this policy needs to be included in there this action needs to be included in there so it's it's fairly straightforward and what they're reviewing for and it's consistent across [31:37] Planning Board Chair: Communities, so they're not going to necessarily come in and say, well, we don't like the way you did this. It's really making sure that the comprehensive plan has all the attributes that it's supposed to have, and that it meets that, those attributes are built out on a way that is consistent across all communities. Yeah, anything else on [32:00] Speaker A (unidentified): the board? No, I just want to publicly say thank you to Barry Dunn, more specifically Ally, huh, she's doing a wonderful job representing us, and it's taking us a long time to get here, but if you looked at her future calendar, we are, We are now months away from this being complete. [32:19] Allie Tobey: That is awesome. All right. Thank you, everybody, for your time tonight. [32:28] Planning Board Chair: Okay. Moving on to Director's Report. [32:33] Speaker A (unidentified): Okay. I'm going to ask you to just pass these down. So, we've had a few conversations lately about trying to potentially reduce the open end statement. No way. What? So I'm kind of a nerd, so I shouldn't publicly say this, but I find joy in watching other communities' planning board meetings just to see what's going on in communities around us, communities far away from us, general practices, et cetera, et cetera. So I never used to pay attention to the opening statements before, but I've now started paying more attention to the opening statements. And generically across the board, both in Maine and other states, opening statements are not two and a half pages long. A lot of communities simply say, hey, welcome to the planning board meeting for the city of Sanford on October 9, 2026. We're going to get the meeting started. I think we need a little bit more than that. So I had 15 minutes this afternoon to spare, and essentially I threw this together just as a starting point for discussion. I printed it so you guys can take it home, think about it, make notes on it. We'll discuss it again at a future date. I'll just point out a few things. Pretty much every community says that community's planning board meeting and the date just to document what we're here for. So I think that's important. The second little blurb is really just a very broad statement of what you guys actually do. Don't think that has to be there, but I wasn't against it, so I put it there. I left the biggest section is really about public hearings, because if there's people in the audience, I feel they're here for a public hearing. And not everybody understands what a public hearing is, what they're supposed to do and whatnot. So I left a little bit more words there just to help educate people that might be in the audience about the public hearing process generically. Currently, our opening statement is almost two-thirds of the bylaws that you guys vote on every year. And while I think it's important that you guys, staff, as well as members of the public, read the bylaws, I don't necessarily feel the chair has to read them every other week, so that next statement basically just tells the audience that the bylaws are in the packet. If they want to read them, they're available for review. I might even, we bring up stuff every night, I might even print five copies and have them at the table if somebody wants to read them as they're sitting there. But I think instead of having the chair read the bylaws pretty much every meeting, it's better and easier to both put them in a packet and maybe even have paper copies available if somebody in the audience wants to read them. So those were the items that I felt really should be hit in the opening statement. Again, I do want you guys' comments on it. We can do that tonight. You can think about it. We can do it next meeting. This was just the first stab at getting the discussion started. [35:55] Planning Board Chair: Yeah, I mean, I think probably just a little wordsmithing. That's what I was going to say. Just tying, I would probably make a positive statement that we follow the bylaws when we go through our hearing and rather than just acknowledging that they exist, that we follow the bylaws and they're available for your viewing. Yep. So I think it's the I don't know if we have to call out the statute like we normally do [36:28] Speaker A (unidentified): We don't have to [36:29] Planning Board Chair: And I'm assuming whatever we come up with we'll probably have a legal review of it anyways to make sure we're good but I like where you're at this would be a lot easier to read I think Jace loves reading the really long one [36:42] Speaker A (unidentified): I think you liked reading it more than he does [36:45] Planning Board Chair: I just got onto autopilot but Yeah, I think this is a great start. I think this is a couple minor tweaks. I don't know what everybody else thought. [36:57] Speaker E (unidentified): Just some minor wordsmithing. I could type it, you know, you could use it or lose it. [37:06] Speaker A (unidentified): Okay, great. Exactly. Okay, think about it. We'll talk about it next meeting just to put any wordsmith and ideas into action. I'll say that currently at the site plan level I believe we have five applications it might even be six that are tabled pending more information updated plan sets so we have a short agenda tonight not because of we don't have applications it's just the applications needed a little bit of tweaking before they come to you. I do think that means we're going to have some busy meetings ahead because while I don't think they'll all come at once I do suspect that we'll get three or four [37:59] Speaker F (unidentified): at a time here in a couple meetings to come just in time for the holidays [38:06] Speaker D (unidentified): Jamie's been very good at tabling at site plan there are plans that need to [38:11] Planning Board Chair: be updated well I appreciate that because you know there's no sense in us hearing it if it's not ready if it's ready and it comes in here we just we go right through it and that's been a really I mean that's we keep saying it but it's been a very positive way of doing it I think I think it's I think [38:33] Speaker A (unidentified): it's better for everybody involved including the applicant now Tuesday mornings as we table three out of three I don't think the applicants are going to agree with me but in the end I think it saves them time speaking of holidays days. You guys interested in doing a holiday party this year like we normally do? I enjoy it [Speaker F (unidentified): immensely. Okay.] Any preference on restaurants this year? [39:06] Speaker F (unidentified): Nope. I like the Mexican restaurant a lot that we went to last year. I don't know if everybody else feels that way, but I feel like it's the, you know, it's a good meal and it's a small venue where we can hang out and enjoy each other's company other than talking about planning board. So I was not there last year. I don't [39:28] Speaker A (unidentified): remember what was going on that night, but I can call him and ask him if you guys were behaved well enough. Well, they'll accept us. [39:35] Speaker D (unidentified): Don't ask him that. No, they got good food. [39:42] Speaker A (unidentified): Parking sucks. Yeah, parking is terrible. I will say that I've heard rumors that both the Mousum River Bistro across the street from Stenton mill will be opening up shortly and i've heard rumors that backstreet grill building will be reopening at some point in november or early december is [40:07] Speaker F (unidentified): it going to be backstreet grill or is it going to be something else it's not going to be backstreet grill but it's going to be similar too yeah okay i had read a facebook post a while back i think do [40:22] Speaker A (unidentified): We have a date we typically take a planning board meeting in either late November or early December. We typically do it on a planning board night, right? Yes. So, holidays this year are tough. So, we have a planning board meeting on November 4th and 18th, and then we have a planning board meeting on December 2nd and 16th. So the holidays actually don't affect planning board, which is good. So I would say probably the December 2nd or the 16th meeting. We could call the restaurant and find out if those dates work. We can also try to play out the schedule to see which date works better for the applicants that are in queue. So we'll get back to you next meeting on what might be the best date well [41:38] Planning Board Chair: Then I would make a motion to adjourn. Are you all set? Second. All in favor. Do we have plans to sign?