Bangor Council Advances June Referendum on New Parks and Rec Facility

We're live. >> Good evening. Welcome to the city council workshop. It's Wednesday. It is a reschedule from what was supposed to have happened on Monday during the storm. Around the table we have this evening council me council fish council Carson council locker council Beck council council parks and recctor and city manager council chair. So we want to get right to it. >> Tracy are you doing the first item? >> I'll get us started. So thank you. >> All right. Uh once again, Tracy Wlette, parks and recreation director. Uh thank you for uh the conversation tonight. We are back. Uh for some of you may recall discussion we back in the summer about the possibility of asking for referendum question ballot question be placed on a ballot uh with the consolidation of a new parks and recreation facility. At that time we took some feedback and some comment. We've kind of regrouped. I start out by saying certainly the need has not changed. Uh as in fact um we continue to uh try and address ongoing uh challenges like current space faces. I at least want to have a conversation with you folks this evening about uh revisiting that and potentially uh having a ballot question through the month of readings of March. I'm going to start uh I'm going to distribute the special committee's report that was submitted uh to the city council back in July. Some of you probably already have this. Uh it may be more than one copy, but certainly I will circulate these around so that you have that in it. uh a committee that was appointed by this council to review a feasibility study uh that was accepted in February of 2024 uh again to replace uh the current park and rec facility on Main Street as well as Soy Arena um or in one none of the information that you have there in front of you is different from what was presented back kind of where we're All right. Right now I'm going to start with Soy Arena. Um again the challenges remain the same as Soy Arena. Uh we have tried a number of repairs to different pieces of the operation. I will note specifically uh the dashes or the boards around. had found were then meeting they start to lean somewhere in the middle of the hockey season and continue to do so throughout the hockey season. Uh that hasn't changed. Uh they are leaning currently and there's a high school game there right now. Um it is presenting more of more of a potential for affecting game play both for youth as well as the high school team to utilize the ranking. Yeah, we've had to make some significant killer repairs uh to get us started this year. Uh those repairs are ongoing and each year we start up. Um it's a combination of crossing our fingers and hoping for the best each year we start the chiller up. Remember, and for those of you that are new to the council, that chiller, which is the unit, the refrigeration unit that maintains and freezes the ice for us, is the original chiller to the building some 30 years ago. So, it is now a challenge and a matter of finding parts for it to to run the chiller effectively. Um, we continue to have leakage along the walls along the restroom side of the building. Um, so far we've only had that happen once. Uh, when we get the typical January thaw, uh, that becomes more an issue for us. And again, the overall age of equipment has not changed. uh the park and rec center. Uh we've tried to we get asked from time to time when the building was built. Our best guess is somewhere in the late 20s, maybe early 30s. Uh originally an armory. Uh we have and the city has invested in that building a number of times over the years. Uh but those challenges have not changed for us either. Um we are starting now to see some leaking in the roof again over the maintenance area. Uh the roofing on the park and rec center is approaching that 20 year typical life of a shingled roof. Um the sprinkler system that was added when the operation moved over there in the late 90s. It's original to that and some of the areas where we get the freeze and the thaw uh and just natural age over time. We're starting to see some uh hit or miss rolling issues with the scrap door in some parts of the building and overall space as we have noted from the beginning of this process uh continues to be a challenge for us. Uh we just finished a quite a busy basketball season. Our programming now utilizes every available gym space in the city. That includes schools. Uh that includes an arrangement that staff has been able to make with East Ming Community College to expand programming using uh what is referred to as Johnson gym on the campus of East Main Community College. We we have our current programming level now necessitates us using off-site space and that's essentially year round level. It's uh basketball programming in the winter time or when we transition to summer programming uh summer for our summer camps. We utilizing school space and other space year round for variety programs. Our child care program I will point to specifically uh child care for us is a large piece of what we do. Um and it is year round whether it's our kids game program which is our before and after school program or our summer camps. Um we are balancing and continue to balance and uh the challenge of different types of programming within child care space. What do I mean by that? It is providing a secure place for child care yet allowing the ongoing open public programs that we have in the building. Um trying to manage that with staff and activities. Uh this past week is prime example. We just had done a school vacation week with child care. Um balancing other folks like our preschool playtime where we allow uh families to come in with their preschoolers and use the gym space. Uh we've got a bingo program that utilizes the building during childcare times. Um Wednesdays are a busy day down there. Saturdays are a busy day down there. You've been down to the park and rec center during a basketball day. Um the parking lot is full, the gym is packed and we have uh participants changing in whatever space they can find primarily rest. So certainly staff has done both at Sawyer and with the park and rec center um have been able to manage admirably [clears throat] the the challenge we had was facing. Certainly um that need has not changed and that was reflected in both the feasib feasibility study that was done in 24 as well as the special report that the committee appointed by council convene to review that report and add their recommendations. um child care needs specifically um kids needs are evolving um and areas like quiet spaces for some of our participants. Um that's now a challenge for us to identify. Currently that quiet space when a child in our childare program needs that time, needs that space, that quiet space is down the hallway to my office. Um and staff makes the best of that and manages that. uh as best they can. Uh that certainly is not ideal. And what you have seen in the concepts and what you will see in the concepts um in the in both the report and the feasibility study, having that dedicated child care space um is an important feature in any facility. Currently, we're pretty broken up as far as using space in in the park center. Now um and we participate with that childare program in a variety of of subsidy programs through the state and we also offer fee assistance both for childare and all of our uh all of our program most of our programming for eligible visits. So there is certainly need out there and I think we've discussed that quite a few times uh these reports of our presentations to you. Um you have a special committee there report there in front of you. Um nothing much has changed from that. Uh certainly they spent April and May reviewing the feasibility study uh compiling their recommendations and printing particular notes to you for consideration back in July. Um at this point uh the recommendations of both the feasibility study and and the special committee will keep in place. Certainly there's some opportunity to have some discussion along the way about specific spaces but uh in a nutshell in by and large the space needs uh remain the same both for the ice portion sort of the arena as well as the child care and programming and functions and recall uh one of the other pieces that we've added both to the feasibility study from the beginning the special report is an accommodation for both our park maintenance which would combine our park maintenance with school maintenance. Currently, school maintenance is housed behind the high school. It will free up that space for school department programming and the partnership that the parks and recreation department has with the school department is daily and that includes the maintenance function as well. um this type of facility uh we have focused on the property of Griffin Road, the school department uh through conversations both uh with staff and their school committee. Um at one point that was identified for some school activity is now identified to locate a combined park and rec facility. Um the unique orientation as far as geography in the city, it would rei reside in the middle of the city. Uh it would also align with Hassan University through conversations with Husten. I believe you have a letter indicating such in the special report material. Um there is an opportunity uh with Husten alone to create a very unique partnership between the city and Husten both for students and their faculty with a facility essentially across the street. So that certainly is an important piece for us as far as location and where we are and again be geographically in the middle of the city on a section of Broadway that has both residential and potentially commercial uh uh development possibilities and I would leave that uh to better uh illustrate that for you certainly with the economic development staff but there's opportunity there. Um we have the parks and recreation department and bigger picture the city as a whole has benefited from variety of organization to provide all of these services and we've all partnered and coexisted um throughout my time here if not before and I refer to us certainly the Y uh and recall at one time there was a YW and a YMCA here. uh we have all coexisted quite well here and now with the addition of the boys girls club that is serving the prosecution of the park section of the city uh we all serve that purpose and do so uh as partners um I can point to for example the aquatic program at leaders and we certainly rely on that resource for our own uh lifeguarding opportunities when we open pools in the summertime And recall the original RFP uh did indicate to any consultant and finally to the consultant we chosen Barry Dunn to first explore the possibility of renovation for both buildings and quickly became apparent that that just was not feasible in either case. uh both the park and rec center again as we as I started the conversation is an old armory um for those of you who've been in I think all of you around the table have at least once or twice um as soon as you drive up to the building oh yeah that was an armory um but to staff's credit uh have made the most of the space but the space uh we have outgrown it and I go now to soy Arena uh Soy Arena is in its ending of of useful life. Uh and candidly, we're at a point where we're getting to be on borrow time there. Um we're at a point where for us to ask you folks of significant investment over there, uh we're beyond that. We've invested in the dashes to try to replace those. We've invested in the mat that's in the sand in the floor that that runs a coolant. Uh we've invested in in a new Zamboni. Uh we've invested years ago in expansion over there of locker rooms. We've outgrown those now. And hockey has changed. So the locker rooms that we added 20 some odd years ago. Uh I've outgrown uh their usefulness. And for the staff at Sawyer, it to manage the locker room schedule with the game schedule and game play. It's a bit of a it's a bit of a jango puzzle sometimes to make that all work. Uh we just had a mic tournament over there this past weekend. Uh we've got a high school game there tonight um with with three high schools that use Soy Arena. So um we are still there as far as need um and that has not changed and will not change uh and will continue to become more of a more of a challenge uh the more the time goes by. Um so I did want to pause there. I think the city manager would like to kind of thumbnail a bonding potential bonding scenario for you uh and then kind of come back and and wrap up what we're hoping as far as a direction going forward and then take any follow-up questions that there might be that works for everybody. >> All right. So, I have a one pager that I will hand out. So, what you have before you on the front of this page, and this is in response to the conversation that we had over the summer and council's desire to really understand how the project could be staged in phases and to how what impact that would have on the overall cost um to the budget of the project. because for those of you that were here, you'll recall that we just presented sort of a number and presumed that we would take that full amount on day one. Um, which certainly had sort of a real immediate impact, but in reality, this is a project that's going to take place over several years. So, the wonderful color green picture that you have is sort of a rough sketch of the project timeline. you'll see that the initial work um begins as early as Q3 in 2026 and then the latest stage of the project um wouldn't be until QES 3 and 4 in 2029. So certainly a very lengthy project and for purposes of the um if you turn the page the bond um payment schedule analysis that um our experts have put together we've presumed taking the bond um or doing a bond issue at each stage as opposed to doing it all up front. And so [clears throat] working from left to right, um the first four columns reflect dates and then you have three different scenarios on the right side on what that bond repayment schedule could look like depending on how it's structured. And as you can see, the middle option, which is titled level annual, has the smallest overall payments throughout the life of the bond, but as a result, we pay more in interest and total across the life of the project. Um, the two options on either side have a couple of years with larger bond payments, but as a result, we pay less in interest. And so the total project cost at the end of the day is less. I don't know that there's any brilliant, you know, I don't have anything brilliant to say about which option is best today. I don't honestly think that's premature to this conversation, but I wanted you to be able to see what that bond repayment schedule would look like yearly. Um, in a sort of worstc case scenario, the highest bond payment that we would have in any given year is just shy of 5 or just over, I'm sorry, $5.5 million. My eyes are serving me. Um, so not an insignificant amount. Um, for the total cost. I think if you would um allow me to, I'd like to talk a little bit about the ways that those costs could be reduced and as well as sort of the the opportunities that those costs represent because it is an opportunity for our community to invest in a project like this as it relates to property tax values and you know enticing businesses to locate here, enticing families to live here. So, I think it's important that we position this as an investment and not just a lost cost that we're sort of sinking into something. It truly is an investment. But going to how we might reduce those costs, it's reflected in this report in some ways, but I'm just to sort of highlight at a top level. Um, I mean, we would certainly if if council agrees to send this to voters and if it gets approved, I think the first thing that we would do is we would start talking to our congressional delegation about the opportunity for congressional funding for this project to reduce the costs. And I think that there is, you know, a reasonable reason to believe that our delegation will see the value of this project and be interested in taking it as part of the conversation for the overall congressional funding package. So, we would absolutely start doing that right away if this were to pass. Um, we will also inevitably explore grant opportunities um to help fund this project. I mean the grant landscape is really uncertain right now. So it's really difficult to come to you with any sort of confidence that that will be something that will pan out come time to repay this bond. But it is certainly something that we will aggressively pursue. I think particularly with health recreation and then the last part of this project being potentially a public health facility. um those are areas where grant opportunities do exist. So it's not also not unreasonable to believe that we would get there. Um much like the cross center sponsorship and naming opportunities are reflected in this report and could be a huge component of offsetting some of the costs of this project. Um, and as Tracy mentioned, he has the committee has already explored opportunities for partnering with Husten, and we would certainly continue to explore opportunities to um partner with other large businesses, hospitals, and universities within the city in a way that could offset the costs. But I think until we know whether the public is in favor of an investment like this, it's difficult to start marching down that path with any level of confidence in those conversations, not knowing whether it will ultimately get approved. We're just guessing at that point. So to really set down that path, I think we need sort of an up or down vote from the taxpaying public on whether this is something that they're interested in. And then the [clears throat] opportunity certainly um the Griffin Road space is a space that is surrounded by a good amount of undeveloped space currently. I would definitely expect if we're hosting hockey tournaments every single weekend on two sheets of ice in and around a new parks and wreck facility, there will be a need for restaurants and hotels and businesses to support those activities. And so I think there is it's a question mark. It's hard to sort of quantify for you what the impact will be, but certainly there are opportunities for tax revenue from development to offset some of the costs of this project as well. It's hard to make promises, but but it's there. So it's where we're at um is in one piece to remember back to the community as a whole in each we started this process in 2021 [clears throat] parks and rec facility master plan in that process was community engagement. the feasibility study and the product of that feasibility study included community engagement which included public forums, online surveys and stakeholder meetings. this council, the city council convened a special committee to review that and met for for a couple of months uh back in the spring and we've all arrived at the same at the same place that the need continues to be there. Um and there'll be a variety of opportunities as the city manager indicated to pursue ways both with revenue that the building generates in of itself as well as the naming sponsorships uh etc uh to help offset the bottom line impact. Uh our as the city manager indicated, our hope is in and our ask is to continue the process for the month of March uh to let the folks let the folks in Bangor decide the citizens decide uh the need that they have for this type of facility. >> Are you ready for questions? I'm ready for questions or if there are none, we'll keep moving forward and [clears throat] >> there are questions. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I mean on Soy Arena alone that is that's been needing help for quite a long time. I mean uh all my brothers use that arena. They've seen it uh at its mediocre to its stage right now. And it's uh it's seen a lot of years and I I one of the things I want to make sure that uh that we come across to the voter is uh what what you were uh talking about uh Carolyn earlier is um um I'm I'm not sure what [clears throat] the best way is to communicate to voters what splitting up that large sum is in a referendum question, but I think it is important to make it clear to the voters that this is um to make sure it's worded in a way where we're not uh misinforming them on exactly like how their uh funds are being spent. I think this makes this a lot less scary than what most people would probably see that large dollar symbol out to be. Um, but at the end of the day, I there is enough uh public support for this project for me personally to just go forward and uh recommend at least writing a referendum that we can all agree upon. I think that is the proper step to go forward at this point because the public uh pressure is there. >> Council, thank you. >> Um, so the cost of building isn't going down anytime soon. So, I'm just curious like is will this number change? >> Well, I think it's interestingly it's about $5 million more than it was when we came to you a few months ago. >> The information you have there in front of you, the city manager presented you as far as the bonding potential. Uh we included the escalator that was indicated in the special report when that was done. So yes to the city manager's point that information you have in front of you is our best estimate based on the feedback of the consult at the time. So, yes, an escalator was built in and correct uh your point is well taken. The longer that we continue to wait, those costs continue to to grow. >> Also, >> uh [clears throat] the uh the numbers on this sheet uh are these going to be offset also by the revenue that comes in from the facility like this is what we have to pay, but these numbers actually could be less. [clears throat] or as far as not all property tax dollars, it could also be from revenue from programs at the facility. >> There's potential for revenue. So, the the proformer information on the special report is going to go to offset the actual operating cost. But to the city manager's point, uh, and to your question, there'll be opportunities to offset that number with naming the gym, naming the ar the rank, uh, naming and and advertising that wouldn't necessarily be reflected in the proformer of the operating specifically, which is what is in here. >> Sure. You know, one other idea too to just to throw out there, I know other communities where, you know, hockey is huge, is they end up doing like a booster club, you know, a 501c3, uh, that they get together, raise money, uh, you do some of their own financing, which also really helps offset, uh, because there's one thing we heard a lot from people is how important the ice arena is. We got a lot of emails. I'm glad to see that. Uh, especially in light of, you know, USA winning gold, you know, both women and men. So, a lot of, you know, renewed interest as well coming for from hockey. Um, the other question I do have though is one of the things that came up during the conversation last year is we got this report and then council got forwarded an email from the CEO of the YMCA who basically said this is a room for room duplication of what we've got. Other only difference is you know their water's frozen, ours isn't. And it's kind of a tale of two reports. Ours says, "Hey, we can two can coincide, no problem." YMCA study says the two can't coincide, that they'll eat each other alive and they'll both end up failing. Um, has there been any conversations since that August email with the CEO of YMC? Is she 100% on board and is going to help work with us to make this happen? >> So, to answer the first question first, uh, yes, there was a follow-up conversation with CEO. myself director had that very conversation and uh certainly they have started construction. Uh the takeaway from that meeting was there'll be opportunities for our organization and the Y to partner and coexist with programming and together meet the needs of the city and we left. We'll we're here to support you and willing to do that. As you know, the Y is off and going and as I indicated earlier, the spaces and the square footage hasn't changed. How ultimately those spaces and square footage get used uh will be something we can work on as we go. That'll be certainly part of the engineering and design discussion specifically. >> And it sounds like they'll be an ongoing part. >> I guess my takeaway from all of this like I look at the sheet is this is the worst case scenario. >> Yes. >> You know, it can only get better from here. uh you know and I think that for me that was I was one of the people voted no but that was for me was a big piece was I didn't see this and now it's here and now I can look voters in the eye and say hey this is what we've got now you decide um you know I don't see a problem putting this in front of the voters >> official >> um the I know our child care um is busting at the seams and I'm door as big a daycare as you could have you could build [snorts] and um soy arena I'm kind of surprised we've made it this far um we definitely >> you say a lot about that >> um and and I think that our community for you know affordable something affordable for our community the elderly to have a facility to go to uh there was a lot I was excited about but again it just seemed like you know the total price tag of 66 million uh and for the taxpayers and not seeing something broken out and knowing we can kind of chisel away at this there will be opportunities and then also I think it was bad timing with the Y coming out with similar programs for us not to be able to really differentiate you know the risk so uh the timing was probably bad but um I'm willing to have it to go out to the um the taxpayers I think the location's great I know I sat in on some of those committee meetings there's a lot more expanded opportunities that we touched on that we won't know until the future comes to fruition, but it certainly sounds like um it could present a lot of opportunities. So, um I'm uh obviously these things can be a little scary. >> It's a big investment. We we recognize that it's a big investment, >> but uh I say put it out to the people and then, you know, we roll up our sleeves and see where we can raise some money and get get some help. And I'm for moving it forward. I am also for moving it forward. Um I'm pretty excited about the investment opportunities and I'm thinking about that. Um when I ask so I know some of the zoning over there like we have low low density residential, we have personal service. >> Where would this be? What is the zoning currently? Um I know we have a deficit of hotels. We need to attract those. >> We're just talking about this. I I kind of want to know [laughter] what's the zone there. Um >> because we might want to be thinking about >> right reszoning if we're looking to to bring somebody. >> Do you want to answer because I can switch chair? >> Do you want to come just talk about what the zoning is quickly? >> Know what it is. >> Good evening. Ian Creek, director of community economic development. Um the zone for that site is a mix of um government service district. There's some shopping um and personal service district in there and there's some rural districts. So, you know, depending on what part of the site gets developed, you know, we can we'll come to you and ask for a zoning change. Yeah. along sorry along those lines with um uh you know customized apparel, sports apparel type shops whether manufactured or retail would that also have to be resoneed or would that fit somewhere in within Well, what we've been seeing um is development has been pushing out Broadway. you know, we're seeing more and more, especially in that intersection, there were dicearts. I mean, it used to be, you know, that was sort of a very rural part of Bangor and you know, over the last 5 years, we've seen a lot more commercial development out there. So something like this would definitely spur that type of thing. And you have been reszoning, you know, that whole node, if you will, of Broadway and and Griffin into um the shopping and personal service district. So it's likely we will continue to ask for that out there. question for Tracy. >> With the anticipated loss of over a million dollars a year in operating, how does that affect the tax rate >> as far as the operating of the building? >> Just the operating of the building and then second would be paying off the bond. How does that affect the tax rate? >> So the operating cost is analogous to what we're doing now for the department. Uh generally speaking, we're able to offset our operating costs with associate revenue. So to come up with a definitive number to answer you tonight, it's hard to do that. What I can tell you is that there will be an opportunity to generate that estimate was just what it was, an estimate. Uh as we go and add programming and memberships, etc., that uh that difference can continue to be minimized. The more revenue we generate in the building either with ice rentals, programming, child care rentals will continue to offset the cost to operate the building, >> right? But that doesn't answer my question. The question is looking at this, well, let's just use one figure. Let's call it a million dollars a year. How does that affect the tax rate of the average taxpayer? How much is it going to increase? >> So for the operating cost side of things, you don't currently now offset all your costs with revenue. So that is equivalent. That is not a change from current. >> You're saying we have a million dollar loss a year on the >> we don't lose. Whereas a general fund operation, we're able to offset the total cost of operating the parks and recck department through generating revenue. that that that difference is about a million to the taxpayer >> every year. >> Yep. >> So we're already contributing tax revenue of a million dollars towards the right. All right. So let's ask then what is the offset on the bond? >> On the actual bond. So the offset um for the bond it's about a 6% increase to um the tax rate under the worstc case scenario. So in the year where we have the highest bond payment, it is a 6% increase. And then in the years when the bond payment is lower, it's lower, which is roughly, I have it here, 6% oh sorry, $300 per year on a $250,000 home. So using that as sort of like your average single family valued property >> and that doesn't include any increase that the city has for other operations >> for other for sure. >> So it's 300 and plus per year >> 300 maximum per year it's in the year of the highest bond payment. >> Other questions? Cool. Fine. >> Thank you. So maintaining these two current facilities is not exactly inexpensive with all of the repairs. So I mean like in the long run and I know it would take some time for for it to even out with that the upfront cost of a new facility, but wouldn't it ultimately reduce costs because you're not having to maintain these extremely old facilities with all these repairs? The potential a yeses is there to to minimize the need to invest in existing facilities. The challenge will be indeed what that investment will be and there'll be a point of no return. There'll be a point where the investment we just can't do that anymore. So arena is a prime example. We're at that point where we need to be very thoughtful of how much more we invest in soy arena. Couple that statement with how much longer to be able to stay open [clears throat] and lose that amenity, lose that service not only to the community but to you. >> I I guess my point is kind of like doing nothing comes at a cost a very high cost. [laughter] >> Yeah. And and not to be alarmist, but I mean the child care services, for example, that parks and wreck provides to the community are very important. And if we couldn't provide those services, it would have a huge economic impact. >> And and if I remember correctly when we spoke back over the summer, you usually have a waiting list for child care, right? So you could open that up to more children. >> More efficient use of a more appropriate child care space indeed could offer more potential for more space. >> In reference to the ice, [clears throat] >> what percentage of people using the ice come from Bangor specifically? not or primary >> I don't want to get I mean majority for example uh Bangor high school [clears throat] uh combined with I know with for the first time this year uh junior black bears are indeed regional program so could I say to you at least half [snorts] I don't want to guess at that and and >> half half are non-resident >> and I think >> my next question would What kind of support are we expecting from surrounding towns and the county? Any So I to answer the question tonight certainly that's something to pursue on both ends. Uh as far as the share that residents and non-residents pay uh we typically charge a non-resident fee. The hour rate at Sawyer uh is the same no matter who's using the ice at the end of the day. uh we're it's an amenity that's providing a pretty significant activity and space to do that activity for youth not only here in the city but uh regionally. So it's that amenity that is is important to to a lot of folks. >> Oh granted I I mean if I lived in I'd be grateful that you're both but there's certainly not >> that's not the point. The point is it's I don't mind providing the facility but I expect an equal share of the payments on it or the the expense of it and I don't think we're getting that now out >> not currently but to the same point there opportunity to pursue those types of requests and asks >> [clears throat] >> uh once once facility is open. How receptive do you think other communities are going to be or when it's built if we you know how I'm looking I don't building it doesn't bother me maintaining it does and I want a fair provide a fair platform for expenses but I don't want the city of Bangar to be funding the all the expenses or the majority of them for the benefit of other >> unders we can certainly pursue I don't know what the response will be on. I'm hoping favorable. >> Well, we don't have any guarantee obviously. So, we could build it and end up paying huge have a huge deficit every year because no one else wants to provide any support >> or it'll be it'll be popular and we'll offset it with revenue that we didn't anticipate. >> So, it's a real gamble though >> to some degree. I don't disagree with that. to some degree there's chances that we >> and I'm looking at the fact that 50% of the population is over 60 their chances of using I'm just picking on the ice now their chances of using the ice or nil but none have a very difficult job uh I think maybe not I don't know convincing me that it's a project that I should say yes go with because I'm 80 years old >> you've got a stick and puck crowd that's pretty diverse in age that uses it. Uh we've got all ages that use Soy Arena. All ages, whether it's public skating, stick and puck. Um it's all ages. >> Actually, council was ahead of you. And then you >> to that point, I think that you pursuing the idea of a booster club would be huge because, >> you know, we get a lot of emails from people from outside of Bangor how much they support this. And two things, one I know that they would support a booster club. you know, if it's not important to them, they would definitely jump on board. And I think, you know, we could take advantage of that. But also, hungry players are or hockey players are hungry. You know, growing up, you know, we would drive three towns over to go to my uh brother's hockey games and, you know, while we're there, we're spending money on food and, you know, sometimes a hotel and all that stuff. So it would be also interesting to see if there's been any kind of feasibility study done even just a rudimentary one just to say hey also this is the additional dollar figure that this is going to bring into to to Bangor as well. So those would be my my two things is that you know people are going to be bringing money with them and the fact that if we do that booster club and you know helping get off the ground oh that's going to offset a lot of the expense of maintenance alone. Council Leonard. >> Yeah. And I and I just want to say and I thank you for bringing up all those good questions, Councelor Malor, especially uh Penny, what that hard figure was in a worst case scenario. I I think that's also really important for the voters to be aware of. Um I I do want to say that um um and I am not a hockey player. I did not I don't really watch hockey all the time, but uh my family is a big hockey family. There is a massive massive culture of hockey that exists in this county and I think it would be [snorts] very unfortunate for us to not continue to invest in that culture at the end of the day because the demand is there and the there was one person who was skating with one of my brothers who was approaching 60 actually playing in these uh public games and uh there are people that I I think would continue to use this arena for probably more than just hockey in a lot of ways. I I it's it's important to I think really understand just one and I'm just speaking on Sawyer Arena alone that that's I I think for for me the the crux of this uh referendum but that gets so much use that I mean you probably know better than me Tracy that like because of that use that's probably further depleted its overall life expectancy. I mean, would I be wrong in say stating that >> it gets heavy use? Yeah, for sure. And and that as well as the park and recck center. I mean, we're seven day a week operations from 6:00 in the morning until 10 at night. 7 days a week. >> Yeah. So, so the use is already there and I and to councelor Foon's point earlier, we actually potentially run the risk of losing money in the long run just by continuously paying these um m maintenance fees on maintaining buildings that are eventually going to fail in the long run is actually probably going to be cheaper for us to invest in new facilities at the end of the day. I mean that that's just how I look at it at this point because I I do know for certain that Sawyer is it's it's I don't want to be too negative been to that arena so many times but it's done. It's it has seen its its days and I very appreciative of the facility. Um it's made a lot of great hockey players but it is it it needs some help and the culture needs some help. [snorts] Yeah. >> Uh, councelor Beck mentioned a booster club and whatnot. What are we doing currently for that? I mean, we had the facility for a number of years. Have we ever proceeded with anything like that? >> No, but certainly something we can >> Well, why haven't we? So, we've basically been funding it citywide for everyone >> and not asking anyone to assist. That doesn't seem to make good sense. Seems like we should have been doing that years ago. Well, just to be clear, we do charge a fee, a substantial hourly fee. What I mean, we >> charge an hourly rate for the use of the ice. In addition to that, we charge admission for public skate. Uh we have a learn skate program that we charge a fee for that. So, all of that goes toward offset. >> Suppose that's not what council is talking. >> No, it's not. No, I don't disagree. >> We've not done that. So, I guess my question again is why haven't we? We felt that the city of Vangos should should uh bear the brunt of the costs for it. >> To this point, the council has approved our operating budget every year and it has not come up until this point. So certainly going forward, if it's something the council would like us to pursue for me, we're happy to do that. >> I think it's time that surrounding communities share in the in the wealth of what we provide, but I think there's a cost involved in that. And I don't think the 50% plus senior citizens of Bangor are ready to fun%. >> Well, that's irrelevant. I'm just making a comment. So, >> and I don't think public comments essential at this point in time. She's >> I'd like to comment. We don't >> know take public comment to you chair. I um >> this isn't really the forum that we take public comment in. >> Yeah, she spoke because she is the chair of the special committee for the project. Uh this is really the work session for the council when they can all get together. Okay. you actually >> I understand you want to go >> that's up to you to the next meeting >> we would have depth at the next one So appreciate you coming but there will be an opportunity for that uh when this will come up for a first reading. So certainly there'll be an opportunity for that >> or you can email >> the chair satisfied with that. Is that works >> council >> I just wanted to point out that at the council meeting following this meeting at 7 there's an open comment. >> That's right. Good point. Good point. If you can stick around until seven, you could talk then. >> Thank you. >> Just thinking about more opportunities. I notice in the report here that the spectators even 250 and so are there there possibility of increasing that? you probably increasing the capacity or that be part of the engineering design or if we're hosting events. >> Well, so that's sort of the direction of my question is hosting events that are right large we've seen like on ice performances things like that. So I'm wondering about seating and technology. >> Yeah. >> Because part of marketing and this is a huge space. So you think about creative uses for part of being able to market that would be more seating. It's a technology. Sure. I want to know a little bit about what's proposed there. >> So, what you wanted from this group tonight is >> our plan is to move forward in drafting a referendum question for you uh to approve and start continue the process through the month of March to meet the required timeline to make this a ballot question in June. So, we're going to proceed with that. Unless otherwise indicated. >> We should have a motion. Is there a motion? >> So moved. >> Second. >> Is there any further discussion? Do we want a roll call vote for this where it's a big project? Yes. >> Council me? >> No. >> Council Fish? >> Yes. Council Carson. >> Yes. >> Council B. >> Yes. >> Yes. So, it's seven one. >> Thank you. We'll keep proceeding. We appreciate it. Thank you. >> All right. >> Yep. >> Next up, we have the crime statistics discussion. I would assume the chief is on his way. Yes. >> Neil is exciting. >> Well, you know, we just want more students to be. >> So, uh, want to have a quick conversation with you about crime data statistics. in October and then in January there was an article in the newspaper that sort of outlined uh crime data in Bangor and compared Bangor's data to other communities across Maine. The the newspaper article was accurate. The data was accurate what they reported. Um and they also indicated in both articles that there's a flaw in the process and the flaw is that there are there are differences in how agencies report this data. And I brought Brent Bullier, who many of you know, he's the lieutenant of our criminal division. He manages our data and he'll explain this much better than I can. But in in simple terms, um we're not we're not going to suggest that other police departments are not reporting data accurately. There's just such a variable in how the data can be reported. It really is a data in data out process. And we're not all reporting the data the same way. Therefore, the newspaper article was acceler the data is flawed. So to suggest that our crime data might be higher or more impactful than another community, it's really hard to compare that based on this process. And I'll give you some context. Um when a police officer is sent to a call, um that officer has to provide a documentation of what he or she did. Could be a computer narrative or could be a lengthy detailed report. We have a two two-stage review process. That officer supervisor will review that document and then it'll be passed off Lieutenant Buller or his sergeant and they'll review it. When Brent's reviewing it, he's looking at it from for a variable a very uh a variety of reasons. One is what's the crime here and what do we have to report? And we're reporting all crime, not hierarchy. We're not reporting the highest level crime. We're reporting all crimes that occurred which is the requirement and you [clears throat] want to explain that further. >> Yeah. So it used to be called uh UCR which UCR which was a it was a hierarch hierarchy you if you went to a call and there was more than one crime report the one that got reported to the state was the highest or the most egregious crime. uh they've switched now back in 2020 to NYERS which is national incident based reporting system which means all kinds of so for instance you go to a burglary with the homeowner [clears throat] assaulted was back under UCR the burglary was was checked off now it's an assault and a burglary so it does it's going to up your numbers but it is data in data out so I looked at some of the numbers when that report came And it's it really is we we try to strive to report the way we were supposed to report. >> But for instance, there's another community that uh >> without calling out anybody. >> No, no. Well, this isn't even discouraging. >> No, this won't be discouraging, but there's another community that for instance, they have reported in 2023. talking about in 49 shootings or 49 weapons incidents that same period we had seven. However, we're twice as dangerous as that city. So you wonder why why is that? Doesn't make any sense. Well, it's basically it's almost quantity versus quality is they take the your population, how many reported crimes you have, they make a division and there's your number. But you actually dig into the numbers a little bit, which I did. what seemed to sting us was on uh intimidation. So you we have a lot of intimidation which is basically form of threatenings. So when you read that you think you don't need to leave your house because someone's going to attack from the street corner. So I p I pulled out some of samples from the from the from the just to kind of give you a perspective. The watch is being coded and how that happens is if you call make a report it kind of types up a a call for the officer. If they type in threatening that that automatically flags it for neighbors. So the offense code that goes into threatening it's already triggered a night report. So like one of those is officer was sent to the hospital, one of the hospitals because there was a person brought that threatening to kill people before they killed him. So I mean it doesn't make a lot of sense. You look into that and talk to him. He's been a mental health issue and he just basically said if somebody tried to kill him then he would kill them first. That's that was the that's really not threatening, but it triggered that that uh negative number one. And this isn't to say we don't have legitimate threat. We do, but these are some of the more laws that that go against us. Um respond to a threatening at another residence. It was actually a group home and resident was reporting on another resident and said she was having she was having a hard time explaining what actually happened but she did not want her roommate to threaten said threatening sedate jack number. So we answer we respond to a little over 36,000 calls each year. So it what we're trying to say to you is we're reporting the data accurately based on the crisis. Other agencies I believe are reporting what they believe to be accurately based on their understanding of the rules. There are too many variables within this process and that creates this flawed system where the data doesn't have as much meaning as maybe it should or maybe it did before the new system was in place. That what we're want to share with you is we are not dangerous. We do not it's safe to be downtown. It is safe to to travel around Bangor. It's safe to visit our shops and restaurants and pubs. It is safe. the data the newspaper used is indeed accurate but again it's based on a on a flawed reporting process and that's the message we would like to share with you and those that are watching on television this evening questions from anybody >> uh I just want to say thank you gentlemen uh I took a lot of notes from that that was actually very um eye openening to see just the type of data how it goes into your departments and how just through the system itself that data can just get corrupted. I was sketching a little uh circular logic of thing on my note and I completely saw just like how those issues came up that uh maybe there's a better way to to put it to the public but uh I I really do appreciate uh you guys recognizing the issue that you have regarding uh this is probably a different conversation overall but it does the question because of this uh issue regarding uh data, especially considering a lot of um incidents seem to be tagged with certain types of crimes, even though some of those or or or even usage of of words or the way that dispatch puts them out. Are you seeing any potential ways to rectify that uh that data organization issue? >> Well, I can tell you there'll be a change in the numbers. Not this year because we're already submitted. But so I I mean at the time I I'm responsible for making sure of the audits done every year because we have to report every month to the state and so on and the year we report. And I'll be honest with you, I wasn't paying attention to these threat and these are just mean threatening complaints that come in. There are some legitimate ones. Uh but I didn't realize they were going to make so much hay with this. So I mean I was looking at the aggravated assaults since then and checking those. So it it takes about it takes me about six hours to reconcile them up. Um so now I just I've added harassments and uh threatenings to my to make sure that we're just done finding the ones that you're making unfounded that that don't meet the statute. I mean there was a harassment complaint I read just last week someone drove by a residence late on the horn and yelled at the window. They called instantly being harassed. Harassment by law is a repeated course of conduct, but it goes in they said they're being harassed wasn't harassment. So that that has to be unfounded or accounts against. >> So to answer your question, yes, we need to categorize better. We need to we need we're not going to under report. Uh I can't possibly look at any of you and suggest that we're going to underreport our data. That certainly is not what we're going to do. But we're going to categorize differently, more appropriately, so it better aligns with what we're seeing. Uh part of this is indeed a flawed reporting system and part of it is we uh need to look at these categories a little closer to be sure that we're being entirely perfectly accurate based on what the officer is seeing and experiencing when he or she responds to the call. There will be an adjustment in our data. >> I I I mean I I don't want to take up the entire conversation, but I'm definitely looking forward to revisiting the subject again. It's uh both interesting but also really important. Thank you very much. >> It looks to me like it's more of a correction for public information. Public, you know, the public's not getting the real [clears throat] meat of the of the problem. You're reporting it properly. Not everyone's using the same standard. So, we're comparing apples and oranges all the time. And as long as you present it properly and that's what you present to the public and to us, I don't think we have a problem with it. You can't depend on other people doing it right. As long as you are, that's all that matters. >> No, I can assure you we will continue to report accurately and we'll return um I'll speak with the city manager, of course, but we'll return and report back to you um as as we continue to report our data to the to the state and to the f >> I don't think this is the first time we've had this problem. Correct. That >> it is not the first time. You you may know somebody that's struggled with this situation. >> Yes. In fact, I consulted with him um a few months ago. >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> Other questions? >> Yes. What can we do? I I This is great. Thank you. Um and I I look forward to hearing more. What can we as a council do to help with the narrative, the sort of incorrect narrative that floats around out there that it's all dangerous? The purpose for this visit was when when you have a constituent reach out to you and say, you know, Bangor seems to have high crime data. Uh the crime numbers seem to be high. You can assure them that we are a safe community and the data is is indeed uh accurate but not entirely accurate based on the reporting system. But Bangor is a very safe community. It is indeed safe to visit our community, to enjoy our restaurant, shops, and pubs. It's a safe community and that's the message to your constituents. >> Next one more. >> So just for like a clarification to sort of like summarize this, you know, maybe if I'm talking to the, you know, person, you're filing a report. It could be the exact same crime as another main community. the way you file it could trigger five, you know, could look like there were five different crimes committed, but another community could be reporting the exact same situation and it's only going to look like one or two crimes were committed because you're doing it a little bit differently. >> Is is that you have it >> accurate? Yeah. And you captured it well. Yes. Yes. >> Thank you. city manager who's on her way. >> He's here. >> Here I am. >> City manager Carolyn Leer just have a small number of updates. Um, so you recently saw that the downtown Bangor Partnership announced its new space and welcome center that will be opening soon. I think the idea of a street level welcome center in particular is really exciting. Um the executive director is going to be coming to give us another quarterly update in March, tentatively scheduled for March. Um so I'm hoping that she'll tell us all more about that move at that time and you can certainly ask questions about that um from her as well. Um the Cross Insurance Center is about to wrap up its yearly hosting of the high school basketball tournaments. Um, the class B finals for both boys and girls are this Friday evening and I believe that's the last game. I may actually try to go and take my family to see it. So, that will be fun. Um, but manager Jake Burkowitz reports that that's all going really well this year. Very successful. There was, I thought, a really nice article um in the paper about sort of the positive economic impact that that event has on the downtown businesses, which I thought was a really good reminder of why that investment in the insurance center was good for our downtown. Um, so only good things to report there. And then I also wanted to recently let you know that I attended a meet and greet over at the federal building with the HUD region one administr uh region one director who is new um region one is sort of northern New England. Um he reports out of Boston normally I believe. Um it was myself and like 25 of my closest colleagues. Um, so not particularly intimate, um, but a lot of folks who are in the local housing industry, um, speaking to the HUD director about housing and the things that are important to them. Um, it was really interesting, eye opening. Met a few people who I didn't know who were in the housing business here in Bangor. So, that was great. Um, I definitely took the opportunity when I was given the opportunity to sort of talk about what was of highest importance to us to emphasize to HUD that I think that their leadership in approaching housing from a regional perspective with, you know, more regional collaboration amongst municipalities rather than everyone sort of going it alone and trying to meet their city or town's needs in isolation could be helpful from HUD. and I saw a lot of sort of nodding heads around the table. So, I thought that was really positive. Um, so more to come there. But I did want you to know that I attended that meeting. Um, and that it seemed productive and it was also just nice to see someone from HUD in the building because I, you know, with sort of the massive changes at the federal level, I think that office um was quite empty for some period of time. So, it seems like some life is being breathed back into that federal building as well, which seems positive. >> Nice. And that's all I have. >> Okay, we have 25 minutes. >> 25 whole minutes. How unusual.